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Front wheel drive ignores really bad physics (drive wheel = steering wheel) and uses brute force (600 pound engine sitting on the axle) to gain a small straight ahead traction advantage. You FWD fans can huff and puff all you want, but there is nothing else there to support FWD as a better system.
Meh, my last car was a proper RWD driver's car (BMW 330) and RWD is only advantageous when you push the car close to its limit. Below about 7/10's a FWD VW GTI handles just as good. Since most people literally never push their cars that hard I think FWD is better option for them (as in more practical, not technically superior...)
as good as the awd was on the bmw when i put a set of blizzaks on it there was a world of difference,.
the winter tires make a big difference on any car but it becomes especially nice on 4x4 or awd systems.
You are correct. The best traction possible, form any automobile, depends on the type of tires. While my wife's Toyota Rav 4 does well in the interior of Alaska with all season tires, I bought a set of Blizzaks for her, and these tires are amazing. Some of the local shops run out of stock since everybody want Blizzak on their cars.
Was thinking about getting a smallish cheap SUV. Wanna save some monehy so thinking about skipping the AWD. Think Kia Sorento FWD with few if any options. Or maybe a Chevy Equinox or VW Jetta Sportwagon. Any idea if these things go in the snow. We do get a fair amount of snow (Pittsburgh) but don't put on snow tires. The point is to get a cheap car with some room in the back. Thoughts?
I think you would hardly ever notice the difference between FWD and AWD in a vehicle like that. You will have the same ground clearance that the AWD has so that is half the battle, not getting hung up. I have AWD in my Rogue and probably the only time I notice it is when starting from a stoplight or plowing through big snowplow windrows. I think my AWD system is like 70/30 so 70% of the torque of the engine goes to the front wheels and the only time the rears matter is when the fronts slip.
Front wheel drive vehicles were introduced into the US market in spite of their faulty handling characteristics for two reasons: (i) cost and (ii) more flat rear floor for seating room.
The experiment with the Toronado had failed miserably and ended badly and there was considerable controversy at the time (and still is in my book) about whether to turn these poorly designed cheapo front wheel drive cars loose on a population not well known for their driving skill.
Front wheel drive ignores really bad physics (drive wheel = steering wheel) and uses brute force (600 pound engine sitting on the axle) to gain a small straight ahead traction advantage. You FWD fans can huff and puff all you want, but there is nothing else there to support FWD as a better system.
As I said before, I drive 4x4's, FWD, and RWD. By the way, I have done so in the interior of Alaska for over 30 years. You just won't believe how difficult it is driving on the ice and snow-covered roads in Alaska unless you come up here and give it a try at -40 degrees like it has been for the past two days. There is nothing you can say about FWD versus RWD that's going to change my mind as long as I continue driving on ice and snow. Now, on dry ground, I do agree with you in that FWD or RWD makes no difference.
In relation to the Toronado, it was way ahead of its time. Just look at the most sophisticated automobiles of today, and you will notice that most are FWD. AWD and 4WD aren't exactly in these modes (all the wheels moving the vehicle all the time). A lot of these vehicles use FWD assisted by RWD when one of the front wheels lose traction.
As I said before, I drive 4x4's, FWD, and RWD. By the way, I have done so in the interior of Alaska for over 30 years. You just won't believe how difficult it is driving on the ice and snow-covered roads in Alaska unless you come up here and give it a try at -40 degrees like it has been for the past two days. There is nothing you can say about FWD versus RWD that's going to change my mind as long as I continue driving on ice and snow. Now, on dry ground, I do agree with you in that FWD or RWD makes no difference.
In relation to the Toronado, it was way ahead of its time. Just look at the most sophisticated automobiles of today, and you will notice that most are FWD. AWD and 4WD aren't exactly in these modes (all the wheels moving the vehicle all the time). A lot of these vehicles use FWD assisted by RWD when one of the front wheels lose traction.
First, I would love to take the challenge of Alaskan snow covered roads, and green laning (haha - white laning). I live for motorized recovery of anything stranded.
However, I am not in agreement with you that FWD and RWD are equal on dry pavement. Far from it. FWD is even more ineffective and even more dangerous on dry pavement. Also, I reiterate that sophisticated suspension and drive train design does not benefit from FWD, it designs around it or in spite of it. FWD is a cost cutting trick by cynical compact car designers that has infected some even well built vehicles.
Thanks for all of the help. My wife wants AWD and I would rather save a few buck and buy a FWD car and put snows on it. I am just having trouble convincing my wife that FWD is okay. Most likely I will never win this argument.
I've driven a FWD Saturn, FWD VW Golf, and FWD Tiburon (v6) in the Pittsburgh/WV areas and have had no problems at all in the winter, even with all-season tires. I don't think there is any issue with FWD as long as you know how to drive.
This year, I'll be driving a FWD VW GTI. It will also be the first year I put snow tires on since the 18" wheels on the car now are less than ideal for snow conditions (a thinner tire on smaller wheels will help more with traction and will provide some give for the potholes that appear everywhere here).
I've driven a FWD Saturn, FWD VW Golf, and FWD Tiburon (v6) in the Pittsburgh/WV areas and have had no problems at all in the winter, even with all-season tires. I don't think there is any issue with FWD as long as you know how to drive.
This year, I'll be driving a FWD VW GTI. It will also be the first year I put snow tires on since the 18" wheels on the car now are less than ideal for snow conditions (a thinner tire on smaller wheels will help more with traction and will provide some give for the potholes that appear everywhere here).
I may be misunderstanding your post. If so, I apologize. If you are saying that smaller diameter tires are better in snow, you are wrong. Narrower tires may be better, that will be argued by some. I believe narrow is better. But there is no argument that a smaller overall diameter is better. The larger diameter the tire the more effective it will be in snow.
Diameter doesn't make too much difference, but if anything, smaller is slightly better.
Trouble is, taller rims are normally designed for fatter rubber, so they are wider. It cuts your options of putting skinny tyres on.
The width is far more important. Fat tyres sit on top of the snow and compress it into slippery ice, skinny ones can cut through.
A good winter tyre should also have a relatively tall sidewall.
If not studded, it should also have a soft tread pattern. Te idea is that the rubber can deform and change the tread pattern for maximum grip.
Also, they should be replaced if the tread depth starts to drop below 4mm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513
I may be misunderstanding your post. If so, I apologize. If you are saying that smaller diameter tires are better in snow, you are wrong. Narrower tires may be better, that will be argued by some. I believe narrow is better. But there is no argument that a smaller overall diameter is better. The larger diameter the tire the more effective it will be in snow.
This thread still has 'life'? There are many like this but what the heck....(because people who seek this advice, need good consul) I will add to the pile of anecdotes where many get to tell what works for them, where and when they live and drive, and sometimes state that their experience is appropriate to the OP's needs.
We have two AWD and one FWD cars, no SUVs. Each vehicle has 4 snows mounted on dedicated winter wheels. I usually install the snows on one or both AWDs the day of the first real snow that is likely to persist, not the early snows that melt in a day or two.
We no longer bother to mount snows on the FWD. It sits in the garage for much of winter, coming out only when the roads AND my (tough) driveway are clear. This is the same way we handled our old RWD BMWs (complete with snow tires). At that time, we had one AWD and one FWD.
What works for one person and their driving needs is very situational. There are multiple variables beyond just the vehicle, tires, and drive system which are obviously important. (Very) local climate, elevation, regional and local roads (and driveways), distance, time, need to drive during/near 'the worst' times of storms all matter. Of course driver skill, experience, confidence, and comfort are also critical.
Any ONE of these factors can be enough to tip the scales to require 'upgrading' capabilities of the vehicle through drive system and/or tires.
I may be misunderstanding your post. If so, I apologize. If you are saying that smaller diameter tires are better in snow, you are wrong. Narrower tires may be better, that will be argued by some. I believe narrow is better. But there is no argument that a smaller overall diameter is better. The larger diameter the tire the more effective it will be in snow.
I failed to state one thing about my winter set-up for this year...
The outside diameter of the winter tire compared to my normal tires won't be much different. My current 18" wheels have 225/40R18 tires on them. The snow tires I'll be using will most likely be 205/65R16. I'm using a smaller wheel to allow for more sidewall in the tire. The larger sidewall will prevent damage to the wheel from potholes. Oh, and 16" is the smallest that will fit on my GTI and still clear the calipers.
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