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Old 12-15-2011, 09:51 AM
 
Location: I live wherever I am.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse2012 View Post
In shopping for a used Honda CRV, I notice used Mercedes and BMW SUVs of same year/similar mileage are around the same price. I would think new Mercedes and BMW are at least twice the price of a new Honda or Toyota RAV4. Is it just that the pricey vehicles depreciate *that* fast and Honda/Toyota keeps their value that well?
People buy new Mercedes / BMW vehicles for their status only. Mercedes has an abysmal reliability record these days (nowhere near their glory days from the mid-1980s)... and whereas BMW may still be good, when you can get an equally reliable Toyota or Honda for half the price of a BMW, it stands to reason that the only thing driving people to buy a BMW instead of a Toyota / Honda is snob appeal.

I read in a recent article that the Mercedes S-class is a huge profit maker because of the gigantic markup. Basically, it doesn't cost THAT much to make, but because it appeals to snobs who don't care how much they spend as long as it means they can be ogled by the jealous among us, they'll shell out close to $100,000 for it. Compare that to a Toyota Avalon, which is comparably full-sized but less than half the price... from a known reliable manufacturer.

Therefore, I think that the "snob appeal" wearing off is what causes those upper-end vehicles to depreciate quickly. When you're looking at a vehicle that's a few years old, you're no longer a snob... you're someone looking for an excellent deal... as such, you will look at the quality and mechanicals of the vehicle itself, rather than whether or not it sports a three-pointed star on its grille.
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
4,472 posts, read 17,653,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN View Post
The headgasket problem with the Northstar engines is well known and well documented. It is my understanding it remains unresolved. Not only that, but late 90s Northstars were losing oil through the engine, despite having good seals, because of a poor casting process. Then, you have the whole front-wheel drive issue. Do your own research, dude, and none of that media hype rubbish.

I was actually thinking about buying an early 2000s STS or Eldorado since you can pick them up for next to nothing even with very low mileage. But after diving into a bit of research, I decided it's not worth it. Those cars are cheap for a reason. Not to mention they come with a ghetto/white trash/old person stigma.

I admit I don't know much about the CTS, but at least it's RWD. I may take a look at them. But as others said, they're really not at the level of the E-class, 5-series or A6,, although they are a bit bigger than C-class, 3-series and A4. I've heard the CTS-V is quite a car and is an American alternative to the M3 or C-class AMG, but if they are like the other models it's only superficial and they don't hold up over any amount of time.
Another person who knows nothing about Cadillacs. First off, the Northstar headgasket problem was reduced in 2000 with the head bolts being lengthened and in 2004+ headgasket problems were virtually unheard of.

The 1990's wasn't a good era for any American manufacturers.

An early 2000's Eldorado or Seville with lower miles can run upwards of $10K especially when you're talking about the 2002 Eldorado Collector's Edition (had one) or a 2003-2004 Seville STS. I don't think those prices are "cheap".

The CTS is a reliable machine from what I've heard. Parents have a 2011 and it's gorgeous. The V models are a beast and ring in at a reasonable price for what you're buying. I haven't heard of them not holding up over time. Hell I really haven't heard of any newer Cadillacs not holding up either.
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
4,472 posts, read 17,653,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
People buy new Mercedes / BMW vehicles for their status only. Mercedes has an abysmal reliability record these days (nowhere near their glory days from the mid-1980s)... and whereas BMW may still be good, when you can get an equally reliable Toyota or Honda for half the price of a BMW, it stands to reason that the only thing driving people to buy a BMW instead of a Toyota / Honda is snob appeal.

I read in a recent article that the Mercedes S-class is a huge profit maker because of the gigantic markup. Basically, it doesn't cost THAT much to make, but because it appeals to snobs who don't care how much they spend as long as it means they can be ogled by the jealous among us, they'll shell out close to $100,000 for it. Compare that to a Toyota Avalon, which is comparably full-sized but less than half the price... from a known reliable manufacturer.

Therefore, I think that the "snob appeal" wearing off is what causes those upper-end vehicles to depreciate quickly. When you're looking at a vehicle that's a few years old, you're no longer a snob... you're someone looking for an excellent deal... as such, you will look at the quality and mechanicals of the vehicle itself, rather than whether or not it sports a three-pointed star on its grille.
Those type of vehicles are aspirational purchases, not completely logical. There's nothing wrong with aspiring to own a certain vehicle or purchasing one once you've "made it". After working for 40 years, my dad purchased himself a Rolex because he's always aspired to own one, not because it's logical or necessary.

I think snob appeal is actually more present in 3-Series BMW's and Mercedes C-Class than it is once you get to the flagship models of the line. A lot of young people who buy the utmost entry-level luxury vehicle they can find usually do so because of brand snobbery and to show off to friends/colleagues/what have you. A lot of the flagship sedans- S-Class, 7 Series, LS460 are purchased by an older segment of the population who have disposable income and have always aspired to own a top-of-the-line vehicle. I don't see many of my age group (30's) driving an S-Class around, but I see tons driving a 3 Series.

I'd LOVE to own a newer S-Class, not because of brand snobbery (I prefer Cadillac to Mercedes anyway) but because of the presence of the car, it embraces being a BIG luxo-cruiser and I like that.

To each their own, nothing wrong with buying something you've always wanted and can afford.
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:58 AM
 
1,459 posts, read 3,292,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
People buy new Mercedes / BMW vehicles for their status only. Mercedes has an abysmal reliability record these days (nowhere near their glory days from the mid-1980s)... and whereas BMW may still be good, when you can get an equally reliable Toyota or Honda for half the price of a BMW, it stands to reason that the only thing driving people to buy a BMW instead of a Toyota / Honda is snob appeal.

I read in a recent article that the Mercedes S-class is a huge profit maker because of the gigantic markup. Basically, it doesn't cost THAT much to make, but because it appeals to snobs who don't care how much they spend as long as it means they can be ogled by the jealous among us, they'll shell out close to $100,000 for it. Compare that to a Toyota Avalon, which is comparably full-sized but less than half the price... from a known reliable manufacturer.

Therefore, I think that the "snob appeal" wearing off is what causes those upper-end vehicles to depreciate quickly. When you're looking at a vehicle that's a few years old, you're no longer a snob... you're someone looking for an excellent deal... as such, you will look at the quality and mechanicals of the vehicle itself, rather than whether or not it sports a three-pointed star on its grille.

a little angry cause you can't afford one?

Trust me, my Bimmer outperforms, out classes a Honda Accord/Camry any day of the week.
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Old 12-15-2011, 02:49 PM
 
24,488 posts, read 41,038,668 times
Reputation: 12919
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
People buy new Mercedes / BMW vehicles for their status only. Mercedes has an abysmal reliability record these days (nowhere near their glory days from the mid-1980s)... and whereas BMW may still be good, when you can get an equally reliable Toyota or Honda for half the price of a BMW, it stands to reason that the only thing driving people to buy a BMW instead of a Toyota / Honda is snob appeal.

I read in a recent article that the Mercedes S-class is a huge profit maker because of the gigantic markup. Basically, it doesn't cost THAT much to make, but because it appeals to snobs who don't care how much they spend as long as it means they can be ogled by the jealous among us, they'll shell out close to $100,000 for it. Compare that to a Toyota Avalon, which is comparably full-sized but less than half the price... from a known reliable manufacturer.

Therefore, I think that the "snob appeal" wearing off is what causes those upper-end vehicles to depreciate quickly. When you're looking at a vehicle that's a few years old, you're no longer a snob... you're someone looking for an excellent deal... as such, you will look at the quality and mechanicals of the vehicle itself, rather than whether or not it sports a three-pointed star on its grille.
It's pretty lousy that you have established money (you know, that green ink on paper) as how you value everything.

Last edited by NJBest; 12-15-2011 at 03:21 PM..
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Old 12-15-2011, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
3,565 posts, read 7,943,506 times
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Yeah, I think those people who are suggesting German cars are coveted merely for a snob appeal are, in fact, themselves shallow - they don't see the meticulous depth in the engineering that makes these cars appealing.
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:06 PM
 
Location: I live wherever I am.
1,935 posts, read 4,761,641 times
Reputation: 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebird2007 View Post
a little angry cause you can't afford one?

Trust me, my Bimmer outperforms, out classes a Honda Accord/Camry any day of the week.
I might be hard-pressed to afford a brand new S-Class, but I can afford most models produced by Mercedes and BMW. Just because I CAN buy one doesn't mean I SHOULD buy one.

As for the outperformance, it isn't worth nearly twice the purchase price to get a car that can fare 1/2 second better in the 0-60 jaunt. These days they would consider a 10-second 0-60 leap to be abysmal... but I had a car that took that long to get to 60 and I never once HAD to floor it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
It's pretty lousy that you have established money (you know, that green ink on paper) as how you value everything.
Oh come on. Money is a medium by which people can barter for what they want. So although money value doesn't directly translate to actual value, it is removed therefrom by only one degree of separation. When I spend money on things, I consider how much of my time that money represents, based upon how much I earn per hour of my work time. I also consider what else I could buy with that money... as in, "my family could eat for X days with the money this costs".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN View Post
Yeah, I think those people who are suggesting German cars are coveted merely for a snob appeal are, in fact, themselves shallow - they don't see the meticulous depth in the engineering that makes these cars appealing.
Get real. If the people were truly looking for engineering marvels, they would go with a few-year-old model with low mileage which had already depreciated its "snob appeal" value away. Besides, if Mercedes vehicles from nowadays were engineering marvels, why is it that they're constantly marked as among the worst for reliability?

Check out this article for the Consumer Reports ten most reliable car brands, written in October 2011. Mercedes and BMW are nowhere to be found. The luxury brands that did make the list are just the upscale models of the normal-market brands that also made the list.

Most Reliable Cars: Toyota At Top; Jaguar At Bottom : NPR

You want to talk about engineering marvels? Look at Mercedes and BMW vehicles from the 1980's. I'd LOVE to have a Mercedes... but if I get one, it's going to be a 300-series diesel wagon from the late '70s or early to mid '80s. That was an engineering marvel. I've seen 80's era diesel Mercedes vehicles with over 300,000 miles on them still running well. I'd wager that few Mercedes and BMW vehicles from "today" will go that far, that regularly. In 25 more years, we're not going to see articles about how Mercedes and BMW vehicles from the 2000's and 2010's are the best affordable and long-lasting used vehicles out there.
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,686,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN View Post
Yeah, I think those people who are suggesting German cars are coveted merely for a snob appeal are, in fact, themselves shallow - they don't see the meticulous depth in the engineering that makes these cars appealing.

Evidently you like them so you won't be perceived as "blue collar", "white trash", "ghetto" or "old person". Quite a list of bigotry.
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Old 12-15-2011, 11:11 PM
 
24,488 posts, read 41,038,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
I might be hard-pressed to afford a brand new S-Class, but I can afford most models produced by Mercedes and BMW. Just because I CAN buy one doesn't mean I SHOULD buy one.
I have an S-Class. I bought it because I wanted it. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's my secondary vehicle.... not my daily driver. I test drove about a dozen cars before selecting it. It was the one that I liked the most that met my criteria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post

As for the outperformance, it isn't worth nearly twice the purchase price to get a car that can fare 1/2 second better in the 0-60 jaunt. These days they would consider a 10-second 0-60 leap to be abysmal... but I had a car that took that long to get to 60 and I never once HAD to floor it.
You're analyzing it too much. If you want a car that does 0-60 in 6 seconds, then that's what you want. If you start considering outside factors then you're compromising. What kind of life is one where you have to compromise on your toys?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post

Oh come on. Money is a medium by which people can barter for what they want. So although money value doesn't directly translate to actual value, it is removed therefrom by only one degree of separation. When I spend money on things, I consider how much of my time that money represents, based upon how much I earn per hour of my work time. I also consider what else I could buy with that money... as in, "my family could eat for X days with the money this costs".
That money vs time formula only works in the early part of your career. The longer you work, the larger the disconnect between time and money becomes. For example, I've been working for almost 10 years now... and my passive income far exceeds my earned income. So if I work 10 hours/week or if I work 40 hours/week, it has very little impact on my cashflow.

So yes, when you're right out of college and your only income is your salary, it makes no sense to splurge. However, later one when your money is working for you, you realize that you can afford to buy things which don't provide the best dollar value, but provide the best enjoyment value. That's the market these luxury brands are trying to grab.

We live in a nation of abundance money. And we can't take it to the grave with us. I'm not saying spend it all. But taking 10% of it or so and just spending it for things you want, is not a sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post

Get real. If the people were truly looking for engineering marvels, they would go with a few-year-old model with low mileage which had already depreciated its "snob appeal" value away. Besides, if Mercedes vehicles from nowadays were engineering marvels, why is it that they're constantly marked as among the worst for reliability?
My particular Benz was not available a few years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post

Check out this article for the Consumer Reports ten most reliable car brands, written in October 2011. Mercedes and BMW are nowhere to be found. The luxury brands that did make the list are just the upscale models of the normal-market brands that also made the list.

Most Reliable Cars: Toyota At Top; Jaguar At Bottom : NPR
Those reliability charts are meaningless to someone like me. My other car (my daily driver) is a 2009 Nissan Altima Hybrid. I'll keep that car for a while. But my Benz, I'll only keep for a few years and upgrade. The people who buy the high-margin cars don't hold onto them for long enough for reliability to matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post

You want to talk about engineering marvels? Look at Mercedes and BMW vehicles from the 1980's. I'd LOVE to have a Mercedes... but if I get one, it's going to be a 300-series diesel wagon from the late '70s or early to mid '80s. That was an engineering marvel. I've seen 80's era diesel Mercedes vehicles with over 300,000 miles on them still running well. I'd wager that few Mercedes and BMW vehicles from "today" will go that far, that regularly. In 25 more years, we're not going to see articles about how Mercedes and BMW vehicles from the 2000's and 2010's are the best affordable and long-lasting used vehicles out there.
Who cares really? Everyone purchasing these cars know they're not going to last from the beginning. But they'll flip it for a new one before.

You have to consider their target audience. These brands are not targeting the frugal customer.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:16 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
3,565 posts, read 7,943,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Evidently you like them so you won't be perceived as "blue collar", "white trash", "ghetto" or "old person". Quite a list of bigotry.
Wrong, but there are a lot of those elements that are involved with Cadillac. I don't mind the styling of the Eldorado and STS and it would be nice if they had been well built - if so, I'd probably have bought one seeing as they are steals. BTW, I do like the buy-American and Texan sort of element of Cadillac's image. But it doesn't matter what kind of car a person drives. What matters is that you know what you like.

I like driving. I like cars. I don't buy new. I think it's a waste of money. I don't have any desire to absorb the incredible depreciation. However, I realize not everybody is willing knows enough about cars to be comfortable buying used and I under the appeal of having something brand new that only you have owned. But it doesn't make financial sense. And that's okay. It's also okay that the initial qualty/reliability, media-hype type reports are misleading and taken too seriously by some - it creates a better market for those of us who want to buy like-new used cars for a mere fraction of the cost of new. Even if you spend up spending $2000 to refresh a gently-used car with a new tierod assembly or what have you, tires, and a thorough tune-up and fluids change, you're still coming out ahead.

Last edited by MOKAN; 12-16-2011 at 04:52 AM..
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