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Old 10-05-2012, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
326 posts, read 667,360 times
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Modern diesel engines are great. Lot's of torque and much better real world mileage than gas engines. However, with the higher performance compared to the old days also comes a reduction in longevity. Can't have it all.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:59 PM
 
4,690 posts, read 10,354,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 28173 View Post
The problem I have (and stops me from getting a diesel) is the fact that diesel fuel here is about 8%-10% higher cost than regular fuel

And there's 20% more potential in diesel.

Lets go look at real world fuel differences. Fuelly.com is a site where people compile their fuel economy (same over at fueleconomy.gov though that's a little harder to use).

2012 VW Diesel owners are averaging right about 39mpg: 2012 Volkswagen Jetta MPG Reports | Fuelly

2012 VW gas vehicles are hitting right about 30mpg: 2012 Volkswagen Jetta MPG Reports | Fuelly (to get a bigger sample, I looked at more years and they're all pretty consistent)



That's a 23% increase in economy for the diesel over gas, or a Total savings of ~13%. Or about $0.47/gallon cheaper to drive the diesel. At 15,000 miles per year, which is supposed to be the consumer average, that's fuel savings of ~$181. It'd take 38.5 years to compensate for the $7,000 difference between the Cheapest gas Jetta and the cheapest diesel Jetta.

Doesn't exactly make fiscal sense if buying brand new.

Back when I bought my diesel jetta, they were priced LESS than comparable gas versions (used, mind you ~ I won't waste my money on new) and diesel was as much cheaper than gas as it is more expensive today. Having lived with the car, I'm spoiled now and will have a Very hard time going back to a gas vehicle. I guess at some point my jetta will have to be retired/junked, but I hope that's not for Another decade... I've owned it for 10 years already and know of no reason not to get another 250k miles/10 years of reliable service out of it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:51 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,610 posts, read 57,588,206 times
Reputation: 46028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_M View Post
And there's 20% more potential in diesel.

Lets go look at real world fuel differences. Fuelly.com is a site where people compile their fuel economy (same over at fueleconomy.gov though that's a little harder to use).

2012 VW Diesel owners are averaging right about 39mpg: 2012 Volkswagen Jetta MPG Reports | Fuelly

2012 VW gas vehicles are hitting right about 30mpg: 2012 Volkswagen Jetta MPG Reports | Fuelly (to get a bigger sample, I looked at more years and they're all pretty consistent)



That's a 23% increase in economy for the diesel over gas, or a Total savings of ~13%. Or about $0.47/gallon cheaper to drive the diesel. At 15,000 miles per year, which is supposed to be the consumer average, that's fuel savings of ~$181. It'd take 38.5 years to compensate for the $7,000 difference between the Cheapest gas Jetta and the cheapest diesel Jetta. Doesn't exactly make fiscal sense if buying brand new.

Back when I bought my diesel jetta, they were priced LESS than comparable gas versions (used, mind you ~ I won't waste my money on new) and diesel was as much cheaper than gas as it is more expensive today. Having lived with the car, I'm spoiled now and will have a Very hard time going back to a gas vehicle. I guess at some point my jetta will have to be retired/junked, but I hope that's not for Another decade... I've owned it for 10 years already and know of no reason not to get another 250k miles/10 years of reliable service out of it.
Yes... If you are buying NEW, If you buy dino fuel, If you pay for maint, if you drive average distances... it is of very minimal value to buy new diesel USA car. There are PLENTY of throw away gas cars that are quite dependable and CHEAP. If you buy new and trade up, diesel probably not great value either.

I don't recommend NEW diesel purchase for economics (unless you are a HIGH mileage driver (have a document / medical delivery service) There is a guy in TX putting well over 100k / yr on his TDI's.

I have tried out TDI's with 550k, still getting 50 mpg and going strong.

If you run alternative fuel, the costs get REALLY cheap for diesel. But again I would not buy new.

There are some feedstocks that will run well in new diesels, but grease will be a challenge. I would be making CLEAN / DRY Bio-D if I was to try running in a new diesel. (Which I never will...)

I only have about 40 more yrs of driving left, so my beater Rabbits and Passat TDI's will get me through. After all... the SAME engine fits about 20 different models of VW / Audi. And I have plenty of spare bodies AND engines (they are each DIRT cheap).

My 'Baby' / 'workhorse' TDI got a new Windshield today... I can hardly wait to SEE (now to buff the headlights out...)
she only has 285k, she would like to be pulled out of service for a few critical items, but I need to have time to drop a new piston ($12 on Ebay) in one of the Passat wagons I got CHEAP. It was driven with a leaky injector and melted a small edge of piston (ran fine, but I preferred to FIX it right, as it will be my 50 mpg RV ;-). I'm adding a water heater, pump and outdoor shower. I also am making a Teardrop camping trailer for LONG trips. Usually it pulls my motorcycle trailer with my vintage Thumper. to places like Canyonlands NP. It is nice to have a 50 mpg 'toter'

BEST option... Buy a NICE A2 (85-94) GTI, ($300 - $3000) throw the gas engine out (or sell...) drop in a TDI ($800). 50 mpg 'sports' car for under $5000

VW... drivers wanted... TDI REALLY enhances that experience.

Last edited by StealthRabbit; 10-05-2012 at 05:10 PM..
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:25 PM
 
28,980 posts, read 14,317,975 times
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Stealthrabbit, it's obvious you are a fan of the TDI's ! I am as passionate about the Cummins. Someone told me the TDI is very similar to the Cummins as in they were first designed as an industrial motor for powering hi lo's , gen sets and things like that in Europe.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:08 AM
 
Location: state of enlightenment
2,403 posts, read 5,225,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post

BEST option... Buy a NICE A2 (85-94) GTI, ($300 - $3000) throw the gas engine out (or sell...) drop in a TDI ($800). 50 mpg 'sports' car for under $5000

VW... drivers wanted... TDI REALLY enhances that experience.
[/color]
I have a gas 04 Passat. When the engine gives out I'm thinking of a diesel transplant. Would the older TDIs work? Where would I look for a good used engine? You mentioned the midwest elsewhere, any particular dealers you care to divulge?
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,223 posts, read 16,356,235 times
Reputation: 13536
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer View Post
Gas will be going up in price.
The cost of ethanol/corn will ensure it.
Look at Californian they have a gas shortage gas is over $5 a gal while diesel is a dollar less.

Yes, some gassers do get good millage but at what cost?
Small econo boxes with no power and no leg room.
The diesel Volkswagen will pin you to the seat if you floor it.
It won't leave you wondering if you can speed up in time.

You will also recoup the cost of the diesel at resale as they hold there value.

A diesel engine lasts longer too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 28173 View Post
Agree!
A lot more torque in diesels is very noticeable.
Also one can double the engine mileage on diesel engines (hence the holding value on second hand ones).

X2


If I could drop a nice diesel in my YJ, I would be a very happy boy indeed. I'd be sad to let my ol' 4.0 go, but it would be worth it.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:23 AM
 
8,317 posts, read 29,383,997 times
Reputation: 9305
It will interesting to see what the Chevy Cruze diesel does to the automotive diesel market in the US. My understanding it that it will use the 2.0L diesel engine designed by VM Motori in Italy. VM Motori designed the very durable 2.8L diesel found in 2005-2006 Jeep Liberties. That engine had some run-ability problems initially in the US Jeeps, related to EGR and emission controls, but those have been solved by the aftermarket, and it is now a great, long-lived, and very economical engine in that vehicle.

If the Cruze diesel engine performed similarly to the Jeep CRD, it might achieve real world figures of 38-40 mpg city and 50 mpg highway--that would make it very competitive with the Hybrids.

The two things the US needs to do at once--both for fuel supply and national security purposes--is to aggressively begin to refit refineries to produce more ULSD diesel fuel and to deploy the technology to produce diesel fuel from non-petroleum sources, especially coal.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:58 AM
 
28,980 posts, read 14,317,975 times
Reputation: 14220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux View Post

If I could drop a nice diesel in my YJ, I would be a very happy boy indeed. I'd be sad to let my ol' 4.0 go, but it would be worth it.
You can , there are plenty of people that are doing diesel swaps on Jeeps. I think they use a Cummins 4BT. Google and I'm sure you can find some info.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Louisville KY
4,857 posts, read 5,777,393 times
Reputation: 4341
Quote:
Originally Posted by 28173 View Post
Years back a former neighbor of mine was telling me how he used vegetable/used cooking oil in his old Mercedes diesel engine. And it smelled like fries at his car exhaust...
Can this still be done with the new diesels & urea?
Yes because Diesel is itself an oil.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Louisville KY
4,857 posts, read 5,777,393 times
Reputation: 4341
Quote:
Originally Posted by 28173 View Post
I must admit that although I never owned (yet) a diesel engine car, I'm very much inclined to get my next car with the diesel option. Too bad that that unlike Europe we are so limited here in USA on our diesel options...another reason to not buy one...

There are some cars that I would consider:
Volkswagen/Audi TDI: A3, Jetta, Passat (hopefully Tiguan in the future), Q5/Q3
BMW diesel (335d, X3)
Mercedes diesel (E320 Bluetec, new GLK250/350 Bluetec, wish for a C class diesel)

The problem I have (and stops me from getting a diesel) is the fact that diesel fuel here is about 8%-10% higher cost than regular fuel (while diesel is less expensive than regular fuel in Europe). On top of that there is a premium price to be paid for diesel engines. I know Europeans buy about 60% new cars with diesel, but they have the savings advantage & many car options that we don't seem to enjoy here...

With new vehicles becoming more and more efficient on gasoline, considering the higher diesel price and extra cost for diesel engine, is it really worth it???
Would the difference be paid off?
What do you think?
Dieael and gas prices are a catch 22, sometimes diesel is higher, sometimes gas is. As far as mileage gassers will never exceed diesels. As gas technolgy advaces, so does diesel.
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