Your top 5 worse drivers by vehicle (or vehicle groups). (2010, brake, AWD)
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The Camaro and Challenger didn't "grow." They were both discontinued for many years. And when their manufacturers looked at how Ford was doing with the Mustang, they decided to get back into the game, looked at their existing lineups and grabbed what they thought they could modify into a V8 tire-smoker. In Dodge's case they took the Chrysler 300C/Dodge Charger, hacked off two doors, and classicized the nose. In GM's case they took the recently dearly departed Pontiac G8 (itself a modified version of an Aussie Holden) and modified it. The same platform underpins the decidely full-size Caprice PPV, and the upcoming Chevy SS.
It also underpins the Holden Ute which almost came over as the Pontiac G8 ST. Thank you Captain Obvious, I knew about that before many people in the States because a good friend of mine used to work for Holden at the time. He told me about it before it was even released as a concept. I was very excited as this was considered to come back to Australia as the next Holden Monaro but the idea died very early. Yes it did grow just because you can't comprehend that the real growth is in the boardroom and the research and development doesn't mean it never did. The cars you see on the road is just the growth being materialized for the public to see. It's more than just seeing rolling down the road.
At least come up with a legitimate slight against the Camaro and Challenger. They both handle better than its predecessors and the Camaro doesn't have such an ancient suspension like the Mustang.
It also underpins the Holden Ute which almost came over as the Pontiac G8 ST. Thank you Captain Obvious, I knew about that before many people in the States because a good friend of mine used to work for Holden at the time. He told me about it before it was even released as a concept. I was very excited as this was considered to come back to Australia as the next Holden Monaro but the idea died very early. Yes it did grow just because you can't comprehend that the real growth is in the boardroom and the research and development doesn't mean it never did. The cars you see on the road is just the growth being materialized for the public to see. It's more than just seeing rolling down the road.
At least come up with a legitimate slight against the Camaro and Challenger. They both handle better than its predecessors and the Camaro doesn't have such an ancient suspension like the Mustang.
Ahh, so this isn't about legitimate debate, this is about you having to defend the cars you like. Now I see.
I don't particularly like any of them (I prefer Subaru, Mazda, and Porsche) so I don't have an actual dog in this debate. But the heavier cars won't handle nearly as well, no matter how advanced a suspension you might give them. They also have that extra weight they need to accelerate, so it obviously hurts acceleration. The cars are more unwieldy. The Camaro and Challenger are also very much like driving armored cars and having to look through slits to see.
They might handle better than their predecessors, but A: they don't HAVE predecessors technically, and B: if you go back far enough to their actual predecessors, that's back when muscle cars were all about straight-line acceleration, so handling better than that, while not to be despised, isn't saying much. And I notice you're not saying they handle better than the Mustang, despite the Mustang's "ancient" suspension.
It's telling that the Mustang competes not just with Camaro but also the Corvette. Ford gets a LOT of of that one model, and outside of the dreadful Mustang II, has been a popular car continuously for decades. GM lost a lot between the last gen Camaro (which was a legitimate if overly blingy muscle car) and the current wannabe.
Ahh, so this isn't about legitimate debate, this is about you having to defend the cars you like. Now I see.
I don't particularly like any of them (I prefer Subaru, Mazda, and Porsche) so I don't have an actual dog in this debate. But the heavier cars won't handle nearly as well, no matter how advanced a suspension you might give them. They also have that extra weight they need to accelerate, so it obviously hurts acceleration. The cars are more unwieldy. The Camaro and Challenger are also very much like driving armored cars and having to look through slits to see.
They might handle better than their predecessors, but A: they don't HAVE predecessors technically, and B: if you go back far enough to their actual predecessors, that's back when muscle cars were all about straight-line acceleration, so handling better than that, while not to be despised, isn't saying much. And I notice you're not saying they handle better than the Mustang, despite the Mustang's "ancient" suspension.
It's telling that the Mustang competes not just with Camaro but also the Corvette. Ford gets a LOT of of that one model, and outside of the dreadful Mustang II, has been a popular car continuously for decades. GM lost a lot between the last gen Camaro (which was a legitimate if overly blingy muscle car) and the current wannabe.
1. I don't like any of the pony cars but I'm not going to put my head in the sand and spout nonsense. I have no preference. I don't own any of the 3 or any products in the same brands. I don't care either way. However, hogwash like the Camaro isn't a pony car yet the Mustang is. Stick to what you know best obviously.
2. Wrong about heavier cars. Heavier cars can if you take the time to tune them and make it handle. Something GM and Chrysler don't care about obviously. The Camaro is a very competent handler for its size that's because it has two independent rear wheels so and they intelligently treated them like they are separate. It's quite known how much time, effort and money Ford took to make the Mustang a better handler. If GM put the a similar amount of care then they could out do the Mustang. Weight is only one part and if a heavier car has less unsprung weight then the heavier car is already one step ahead.
3. The Chevy Camaro has a predecessor (you can go back to the Commodore through the years which has just as much pedigree if not more than the Camaro because of its international history). You can also go back to the 4th gen. The 4th gen Camaro died in 2002 and the 5th gen concept appeared in 2006 and vehicle development starts years before release. So, common sense should tell you that there was no more than a 2 year gap between the death and the start of making a new Camaro. Obviously GM didn't forget what makes a Camaro a Camaro. Sure, they used the Zeta platform to build it on but it was just groundwork. They built the Camaro to be what they think the Camaro is/should be. The finished product is at least a logical evolution from the past which is what it comes down to. Also, your opinion means nothing to them (same for my opinion) and they know more about the Camaro than you. They write the rules not you at least for the Camaro (and same for Chrysler with the Challenger).
The Challenger's actual successor goes back to Mercedes-Benz as the LX (LC specifically for the Challenger) platform was developed with many Mercedes-Benz components. So, it's actual predecessor can legitimately go back to the W221 E-Class and parts can even be shared from them. However, it still related to the classic Challenger via my same point with GM and the Camaro.
4. Mustang competes with the Corvette? What? Seriously? That literally ruined your entire argument. Ford doesn't get that much out of it. There is no competitor from Ford with the Corvette. You had the Ford GT then that was it. You're trying to act like Ford is fighting on two fronts. It isn't nor do I think they want to in the first place. They are trying to improve it as much as possible. If it was really trying to compete with the Corvette then you would see them trying to smash Corvette times on the Nurburgring.
BTW, the Camaro ZL1 lapped the Nurburgring in 7:41:27. The Ford GT500 (2012 or 2013) haven't been released. Something they either don't care about or they failed to beat the times maybe both.
Any German make, but more specifically BMW & Volkswagen seem to be the worst offenders.
These guys are almost always over the speed limit, always tailgating you, cutting you off and think they have special privileges...
Its not the type of car imho,even thought the big Suv's do seem to have idiot drivers who like to act like they don't see smaller cars on the road.
Its more of the state the person comes from.
A person with PA plates could drive in a Mercedes,Toyota Prius,or Chevy Malibu,yet they always somehow drive 50 mph in the fast lane.
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Thank you Captain Obvious, I knew about that before many people in the States because a good friend of mine used to work for Holden at the time. He told me about it before it was even released as a concept. I was very excited as this was considered to come back to Australia as the next Holden Monaro but the idea died very early. Yes it did grow just because you can't comprehend that the real growth is in the boardroom and the research and development doesn't mean it never did. The cars you see on the road is just the growth being materialized for the public to see. It's more than just seeing rolling down the road.
