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What is that supposed to mean? Oh- I get it. It more or less makes the point I was making earlier crystal clear: "Those furrin' car guys"... Well, like I said before, if the other carmakers made better cars and were listed at the top of the reliability charts then perhaps those arguing otherwise would have a point.
As far as the argument that comparing the most reliable car toyota makes to the most reliable car Ford or others make, that's simply a non-accurate metric. The facts are that these reliability numbers come from specifics: problems per vehicle. So if Brand "X" has 20 problems per vehicle in average, and brand "Z" has 10, then do the math.
As far as the specifics of this conversation, the vehicle I suggested to start with, the Avalon, is in fact more reliable than the Crown Vics and Lincolns mentioned before, so even if we were to entertain a car to car basis, the car I mentioned is in fact more reliable than those being compared. Nuff' said.
You are right. They just cannot understand the distinction between brand and model, or the distinction between different model years. We could probably give them a dozen examples and they still could not grasp it or would simply refuse to. Oh well.
I will give it one more try (I am not sure why, I guess I just want people to learn to apply logic). To use your example of problems per vehicle lets use a hypothetical. If an Avalon has 90 problems per vehicle and a CTS has 10 problems per vehicle, but Land Cruiser has only 3 problems per vehicle, while an Escalade has 387, Toyota will have a better brand average than Cadillac. However that does make the Avalon a better or more reliable vehicle than a CTS simply because it has a brand with a better average. Yes, it is still a Toyota, but is it a less reliable Toyota. Now these are just examples (some times hypotheticals are hard to understand so if it makes it easier, you can replace each car model with "Car X, Car A Car Y and Car B respectively. That may help to avoid confusion) it does not matter which car you use to compare, if you want to look up every car from every brand you will find there are cars by other makers that are more reliable than some models of Toyota (except that apparently, you will not believe it even if you find it).
Furhter you will find that reliability rating vary significantly. Some consider different items, some are just wildly different in their results. It can also vary by the area where the study was done. Some polls or studies look only at repairs by dealerships (who sometimes lie) and fail to consider whether certain brands are more likely to be repaired at Independent shops or DIY. thus, for example Volvo V70 which is insanely expensive to have repaired by a dealer will come of as being incredibly reliable while in fact, they are breaking down and being repaired by independent shops or DIY because dealer repairs are outrageously expensive. Volvo makes a good example for me because I have one and I know repairs at the dealer are 300% more expensive than at an indy shop and 400% - 500% more than DIY. Thus, you woudl have to be crazy to get it repaired at a dealer. As a result, they will not have reporting of many repairs by dealers and appear to be unusually reliable when in fact they are not (reasonably reliable yes, unusually reliable - not at all).
Last edited by Coldjensens; 04-10-2013 at 11:35 AM..
You are right. They just cannot understand the distinction between brand and model, or the distinction between different model years. We could probably give them a dozen examples and they still could not grasp it or would simply refuse to. Oh well
I understood fully what was mentioned before. What was mentioned, which is in comparing specific models to models doesnt hold any water. Overall, Toyota makes a more reliable product. In fact, If you were to look at pretty much their entire lineup, they are mostly within the upper level of the reliability ratings and I already showed a variety of cars and trucks we have owned from Toyota that were ALL very reliable. And as mentioned before, please show me a chart that shows the former Crown Vic as being more reliable than the Avalon and perhaps a point could be made.
[quote=sliverbox;29078702]I understood fully what was mentioned before. What was mentioned, which is in comparing specific models to models doesnt hold any water. Overall, Toyota makes a more reliable product. In fact, If you were to look at pretty much their entire lineup, they are mostly within the upper level of the reliability ratings and I already showed a variety of cars and trucks we have owned from Toyota that were ALL very reliable. And as mentioned before, pleae show me a chart that shows the former Crown Vic as being more reliable than the Avalon and perhaps a point could be made.[quote]
I dont need to see a chart to tell me this. I see lots of more old Crown Vics on the road then I do avalons, Have you ever seen a Avalon in fleet use out side of a rental car? Could a Avalon hold up to the kinda of abuse that a taxi or a cop car gets put through on a yearly basis.
I dont need to see a chart to tell me this. I see lots of more old Crown Vics on the road then I do avalons, Have you ever seen a Avalon in fleet use out side of a rental car? Could a Avalon hold up to the kinda of abuse that a taxi or a cop car gets put through on a yearly basis.
That has zilch to do with anything. The Crown Vics that were sold to cops were totally different from the civilian variants with an enormous amount of upgrades to the drivetrain, brakes, suspension, and frames.
But I will say that at least here in SF, one of the most common Taxi cabs are actually Camrys, and I've ridden in enough cabs here to tell you that if you were to compare a Crown Vic and Camry cab of the same age, almost all of the Crown Vic cabs I've ridden in were rattly pieces of crap while the Camrys were still tight, quite, and holding together just fine. An Avalon is far too expensive of a car for fleet service, but if it were, it would hold up a lot better than the now defunct Crown Vic.
Let me put it to you this way: My Brother inherited my Mom's 98 Avalon. We lived in Rural North Carolina with a gravel driveway, poor roads, and sometimes awful weather. My Mom was pretty bad at maintenance and only remembered to change the oil whenever I came home.... ONCE a year. My Brother was little better and we no kidding changed the timing belt at 275,000 miles. It was the Original belt too, which meant it had 4 Times the amount of use on it than it was supposed to have had and yet it still held up fine. He goes hiking a lot and took the car off-roading ( I would NOT recommend that) and the underside of the car was scraped to bits. Still had as smooth a ride as ever.
We sold that car with well over 300,000 miles. I stand by my previous comment that this is one of the best cars you can buy reliability-wise, and light years ahead of the Crown Vic for sure.
hat has zilch to do with anything.The Crown Vics that were sold to cops were totally different from the civilian variants with an enormous amount of upgrades to the drivetrain, brakes, suspension, and frames.
But I will say that at least here in SF, one of the most common Taxi cabs are actually Camrys, and I've ridden in enough cabs here to tell you that if you were to compare a Crown Vic and Camry cab of the same age, almost all of the Crown Vic cabs I've ridden in were rattly pieces of crap while the Camrys were still tight, quite, and holding together just fine. An Avalon is far too expensive of a car for fleet service, but if it were, it would hold up a lot better than the now defunct Crown Vic.
Let me put it to you this way: My Brother inherited my Mom's 98 Avalon. We lived in Rural North Carolina with a gravel driveway, poor roads, and sometimes awful weather. My Mom was pretty bad at maintenance and only remembered to change the oil whenever I came home.... ONCE a year. My Brother was little better and we no kidding changed the timing belt at 275,000 miles. It was the Original belt too, which meant it had 4 Times the amount of use on it than it was supposed to have had and yet it still held up fine. He goes hiking a lot and took the car off-roading ( I would NOT recommend that) and the underside of the car was scraped to bits. Still had as smooth a ride as ever.
We sold that car with well over 300,000 miles. I stand by my previous comment that this is one of the best cars you can buy reliability-wise, and light years ahead of the Crown Vic for sure.
Drivetrain/Brakes are exactly the same, there is no such thing as the "cop chip" There is a slightly upgraded suspension and a HO alternator, but other then that, there is no difference bewteen a p71 and non p71. Avalons are far too expensive, but Town Cars arnt? It has everything to do with it. The fact that I still see these cars on the road, and I dont see the Avalons proves that the Crown Vics are more reliable and last longer.
Drivetrain/Brakes are exactly the same, there is no such thing as the "cop chip" There is a slightly upgraded suspension and a HO alternator, but other then that, there is no difference bewteen a p71 and non p71. Avalons are far too expensive, but Town Cars arnt? It has everything to do with it. The fact that I still see these cars on the road, and I dont see the Avalons proves that the Crown Vics are more reliable and last longer.
Nope, sorry. Most cop cars sold to forces were in fact heavily upgraded right down to the brake lines and hub caps. I almost bought one on a long commute job 5-6 years ago and did the research. Also- seeing more of a model on the roads doesnt mean they are better cars. At one time the Taurus was the best selling car in America and yet was a Big POS. I see a lot of those around too. Does that mean they're ggrrreat cars? No, not at all.
Lastly, I looked up the actual reliability ratings of both cars models. The results are that the Avalon is a MUCH more reliable car than the Crown Vic, which at best got extremely mediocre results.
But I'm sure the response will be: " Oh yeah? well I saw 3 Crown Vics on the way to work today and only one Avalon and so Crown Vics are more reliable!"
Nope, sorry. Most cop cars sold to forces were in fact heavily upgraded right down to the brake lines and hub caps. I almost bought one on a long commute job 5-6 years ago and did the research. Also- seeing more of a model on the roads doesnt mean they are better cars. At one time the Taurus was the best selling car in America and yet was a Big POS. I see a lot of those around too. Does that mean they're ggrrreat cars? No, not at all.
Lastly, I looked up the actual reliability ratings of both cars models. The results are that the Avalon is a MUCH more reliable car than the Crown Vic, which at best got extremely mediocre results.
But I'm sure the response will be: " Oh yeah? well I saw 3 Crown Vics on the way to work today and only one Avalon and so Crown Vics are more reliable!"
Except for the fact that they are not, but its nice that you keep making your self look like a fool. The only differences are the ones I noted previously. You mave have LOOKED at one, but I OWNED one, and you sir are wrong. The "hub cap" is plastic just like on every other car. The rims do have a "bead lock(thats the best way I can describe it)" plate to help secure the tire to the wheel
Nope. Wrong-o, and if one were to look like a fool, they would be getting their facts incorrect. Modified or not, Crown Vics do not hold the same reliability standard as the Avalon and for that matter, pretty much all the rest of the Toyota lineup. Besides- they don't make Crown Vics anymore... do they? End of story.
That has zilch to do with anything. The Crown Vics that were sold to cops were totally different from the civilian variants with an enormous amount of upgrades to the drivetrain, brakes, suspension, and frames.
But I will say that at least here in SF, one of the most common Taxi cabs are actually Camrys, and I've ridden in enough cabs here to tell you that if you were to compare a Crown Vic and Camry cab of the same age, almost all of the Crown Vic cabs I've ridden in were rattly pieces of crap while the Camrys were still tight, quite, and holding together just fine. An Avalon is far too expensive of a car for fleet service, but if it were, it would hold up a lot better than the now defunct Crown Vic.
Let me put it to you this way: My Brother inherited my Mom's 98 Avalon. We lived in Rural North Carolina with a gravel driveway, poor roads, and sometimes awful weather. My Mom was pretty bad at maintenance and only remembered to change the oil whenever I came home.... ONCE a year. My Brother was little better and we no kidding changed the timing belt at 275,000 miles. It was the Original belt too, which meant it had 4 Times the amount of use on it than it was supposed to have had and yet it still held up fine. He goes hiking a lot and took the car off-roading ( I would NOT recommend that) and the underside of the car was scraped to bits. Still had as smooth a ride as ever.
We sold that car with well over 300,000 miles. I stand by my previous comment that this is one of the best cars you can buy reliability-wise, and light years ahead of the Crown Vic for sure.
Using ONE example really doesn't mean much.
I can also use one example... a 2003 Ford Crown Victoria I read about on a website. 465,000 miles and the only major (if you can call it major) repair was rear wheel bearings at 110,000 miles. It is still on its original set of spark plugs.
I used to post at a Lincoln Town Car forum in which several members had 250,000+ miles on their cars.
And I would certainly rather own and drive a Town Car or Crown Vic than a bland Camry. I've rode in my Sister-in-Law's '07 Camry, with it's stiff seats, and it's like going for a drive in a refrigerator... nothing to it, just "transportation."
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