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Old 11-15-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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Magnulus ... you've got just enough information to be quite ill-informed to be making any declarations about fuel economy or operating efficiency ... let alone an understanding of how fuels are made and how they are utilized by the marketplace.

I don't mean to be harsh about this, but some of us have been around long enough as mechanics to have actually worked on fleet transport and automotive vehicles when gasoline was still used in the local and long-haul transportation sector. Diesel has been the fuel of choice for so many years because the fuel was a by-product of gasoline production and hence very inexpensive, so the motors didn't have to be as optimally efficient as they do in today's energy marketplace. Some of us do well recall nickle-a-gallon diesel for our fishing boat motors, and twenty-five cents per gallon avgas for our planes. Not to mention cruising through the Southwestern USA and hitting the Whiting Bros stations for eighteen cents per gallon regular gas that was in the 91 octane range .... and twenty five cents for premium in our high performance motorcycles.

Anyway, fundamental and basic fact: there is approx 20% more BTU's per gallon of diesel fuel than a gallon of regular gasoline (which has more energy content than a gallon of higher octane gasoline). A properly set up diesel motor always operates at a better than stoichometric ratio of fuel to air ... that is, there's an abundance of air in the combustion chamber relative to the volume of fuel to be burned. At idle, a diesel motor only requires enough fuel to burn in the air compressed in the motor to push the piston down and keep the crankshaft turning with all of it's accessories ... a miniscule amount of fuel per cycle.

OTOH, a gasoline motor requires fuel enrichment for smooth operation in many of it's operating modes ... acceleration under load, high power loading, etc. It always uses more fuel per HP per hour than a diesel motor under the best of circumstances. It cannot sustain proper combustion at less than stochiometric air/fuel volumes except for certain steady state operating conditions ... like leaning out a motor to lean-of-peak operating exhaust temperatures, which yield a slower flame path and smoother push on a piston in motors that are operated at continuous loads/rpm's in cruise.

So, you can talk all you want about the latest advances in gasoline engine performance ... multi-valve heads, overhead cams, variable valve timing, newer types of ignition systems with multiple sparks per cycle, variable intake plenum volumes, better fuel/ignition mapping, etc., etc., etc., ... made by everybody in the business ... USA, Japanese, German, Italian, British (not just Toyota and Honda, by any stretch of the imagination) ... and these motors still operate under a basic handicap of significantly less energy per gallon of fuel than with a diesel fueled motor.

Interestingly enough, the diesel world has been using multi-valve heads, turbocharging, supercharging, intercooling, and similar induction performance enhancements in their most basic motors for many, many years .... and now they're working with variable displacement intake manifolds, multi-cycle injectors, etc., etc., etc., too .... to bring this technology in fuel economy and clean running to the diesel marketplace. Fuel stratified direct injection in a diesel motor (around for a long time) is using much more powerful fuel in a much more efficient combustion process from the get-go ....

I think making a transportation comparison to USA domestic markets and SA's rural markets via motorcycle is rather baseless, if not laughable. Especially in light of the amount of cargo that a mid-size motorcycle can deliver per trip ... at what, maybe 50 miles per gallon? I've toured enough with a pretty good load on many motorcyles to know what real world fuel mileage is on these bikes and how much they can haul. It's not a very efficient means of load hauling when you compare what can be transported by an existing 50+ mpg diesel Jetta car (as an example), or even my old 1986 Peugeot 504D Station Wagon (now that was a load hauler!) at 36-37 mpg. Even a Rabbit Diesel PickUP truck could haul quite a load at around 45 mpg. Exit the motorcycle as an efficient means of commodity or goods transport .... and we haven't even scratched what a small displacement modern diesel truck motor can deliver in a one-ton truck at 20+ mpg.
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Old 11-16-2007, 07:29 PM
 
1,573 posts, read 4,052,374 times
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Have you seen the prices of diesel lately, though? It is more than gasoline, about twenty to thirty cents more. Owning a diesel jetta is hardly worth it when you can go out and buy a Honda Fit or Civic and pocket the difference in price. At least for the average person. I'm not convinced diesel is cheap to refine anymore, just consider the amount of work that must be done to remove the sulfur from the fuel (that's the excuse for the higher prices) Maybe if we lived before the EPA started going nuts diesel would be a better buy for car engines, as it is the "diesel car" is always struggling to stay one step ahead of environmental regulations.

Here's an example of a motorcycle used in Japan for local deliveries such as mail and small orders. The Honda Gyro shown above has a 50cc engine and gets around 100 miles per gallon or so. In India they use 3-wheeler pickup trucks to deliver alot of goods, they have 150cc engines, top out about 40 mph and get very high fuel economy.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:14 PM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,733 posts, read 15,887,368 times
Reputation: 2869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnulus View Post
Have you seen the prices of diesel lately, though? It is more than gasoline, about twenty to thirty cents more. Owning a diesel jetta is hardly worth it when you can go out and buy a Honda Fit or Civic and pocket the difference in price. At least for the average person. I'm not convinced diesel is cheap to refine anymore, just consider the amount of work that must be done to remove the sulfur from the fuel (that's the excuse for the higher prices) Maybe if we lived before the EPA started going nuts diesel would be a better buy for car engines, as it is the "diesel car" is always struggling to stay one step ahead of environmental regulations.

Here's an example of a motorcycle used in Japan for local deliveries such as mail and small orders. The Honda Gyro shown above has a 50cc engine and gets around 100 miles per gallon or so. In India they use 3-wheeler pickup trucks to deliver alot of goods, they have 150cc engines, top out about 40 mph and get very high fuel economy.
I guess I have joined that crowd , in a way. I have a Suzuki carry , a very small P/u 4 x 4 truck. Its cab over ,( engine under frame 3 cylinder 660cc ) ,heater, safety gear, wipers fully enclosed , just like a big truck,, and goes 70mph , gets 50 mpg , plows my driveway , hauls my trash, etc. , but ....can't get a tag for highway use, so , we just put the slow triangle on the back , and , go most anywhere , .....in the rural area of the county...... many of us out there these days , trading in the ATV,Mule,Polaris, for one of these mini trucks , or as they are called in japan" Kei trucks". All are imported used , and run from 5,000 to 8,000 depending on equipment. Great little truck.
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Blue Ridge Mtns of NC
5,660 posts, read 26,931,143 times
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According to AAA, the national average price at the pumps for diesel fuel is currently $3.457 per gallon compared to $3.109 for regular unleaded.

http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/
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Old 11-16-2007, 08:48 PM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,733 posts, read 15,887,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm34b View Post
According to AAA, the national average price at the pumps for diesel fuel is currently $3.457 per gallon compared to $3.109 for regular unleaded.

http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/
I have drivers that payed 3.79 out east yesterday......highest I have seen , ever.The truckers sur charge is close now to 30%...will show up in the store soon........stay tuned !
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:51 PM
 
11,550 posts, read 52,959,916 times
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Those very small carrying capacity vehicles aren't suitable for carrying a real load in the real world here.

What's the payload weight rating on that Honda Gryo? How much volume does it carry? Even if it was 200 lbs (which it isn't), and 8 cu ft (which it isn't) ... it's still impractical to pay a driver a living wage in the USA with one of those, even if it got 250 miles per gallon (which it doesn't) and was able to run freeway speeds (which it doesn't). With only 50cc, these vehicles have a difficult time keeping up with 35 mph traffic. You'd look awfully stupid trying to make a dry goods delivery of any real volume, or a store delivery with a fleet of those things compared to one 53' semi-trailer and 50-60,000 lbs of merchandise to a facility. Essentially, these little 50cc machines are only an alternative to a bicycle messenger/delivery service .... or a custom service locally delivering very small goods.

I've seen a bunch of the little "kei" trucks used in grounds maintenance and similar closed campus situations (golf courses, cemeteries, schools, etc) ... they can be efficient and useful for a lot of minor jobs, the same way my Polaris 6x6 Big Boss (an older 400cc and newer 500cc models) are used around my farm and ranch. Unfortunately, the little trucks won't go all the places we need to service around here with the 6x6 drive wheel ability when doing fencing and irrigation work ... or I'd consider one of those. (Some places we can only routinely get into on a horse ... which has the potential for fun, but it's not a very efficient use of time).

Same economics for those little 150cc three wheelers used in India. There's simply no way that the fuel economy/performance/weight/volume capacity of these vehicles offsets the loss of driver productivity or can handle goods in the quantities and speed that are efficient in the USA. There's simply no way that a driver can haul enough in a day here to earn/justify a living wage.

And yes, I've had an opportunity to check on fuel prices today while out on the road picking up some livestock and ranch supplies in Greeley, CO ... and low-sulfur highway diesel fuel is still running only about 10% more than the cost of gasoline.

Let's see ... a 10% premium in cost for a 20% increase in fuel energy. Those are the type of economics that work for me when we talk "diesel".

You folks are still blind to the real economics of driving a $100,000 rig with a $0.50 to $0.60/mile driver hauling 40,000 to almost 60,000 lbs of goods. At 60 mph and 5 mpg, he's using 12 gallons per hour .... if diesel fuel went up from $1.50 to $3.50 per gallon over the last few years (which is about what it's done) ... then the fuel cost per hour of operation went up from $18.00/hour to $42.00/hour, or from $0.30/mile to $0.70 per mile. Even with the more than doubling of the fuel expense increase, it's a small fraction of the overall operating value of the operation. Let's take a typical cargo ... say 9,000 gallons of gasoline ... now worth $3.00/gallon .... that's a $27,000.00 load. If the driver goes a nominal distance to make the delivery, we're talking only $48.00 more money to make the haul (both ways ... loaded out, empty back). Incrementally, $48.00 is a very small component cost of the fuel delivery. Relatively speaking, a $27,000 load is pretty inexpensive ... I've seen a lot of trailers going down the road with half-million dollar loads of goods ....

Last edited by sunsprit; 11-16-2007 at 11:05 PM..
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Old 11-17-2007, 02:48 AM
 
Location: State of Superior
8,733 posts, read 15,887,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
Those very small carrying capacity vehicles aren't suitable for carrying a real load in the real world here.

What's the payload weight rating on that Honda Gryo? How much volume does it carry? Even if it was 200 lbs (which it isn't), and 8 cu ft (which it isn't) ... it's still impractical to pay a driver a living wage in the USA with one of those, even if it got 250 miles per gallon (which it doesn't) and was able to run freeway speeds (which it doesn't). With only 50cc, these vehicles have a difficult time keeping up with 35 mph traffic. You'd look awfully stupid trying to make a dry goods delivery of any real volume, or a store delivery with a fleet of those things compared to one 53' semi-trailer and 50-60,000 lbs of merchandise to a facility. Essentially, these little 50cc machines are only an alternative to a bicycle messenger/delivery service .... or a custom service locally delivering very small goods.

I've seen a bunch of the little "kei" trucks used in grounds maintenance and similar closed campus situations (golf courses, cemeteries, schools, etc) ... they can be efficient and useful for a lot of minor jobs, the same way my Polaris 6x6 Big Boss (an older 400cc and newer 500cc models) are used around my farm and ranch. Unfortunately, the little trucks won't go all the places we need to service around here with the 6x6 drive wheel ability when doing fencing and irrigation work ... or I'd consider one of those. (Some places we can only routinely get into on a horse ... which has the potential for fun, but it's not a very efficient use of time).

Same economics for those little 150cc three wheelers used in India. There's simply no way that the fuel economy/performance/weight/volume capacity of these vehicles offsets the loss of driver productivity or can handle goods in the quantities and speed that are efficient in the USA. There's simply no way that a driver can haul enough in a day here to earn/justify a living wage.

And yes, I've had an opportunity to check on fuel prices today while out on the road picking up some livestock and ranch supplies in Greeley, CO ... and low-sulfur highway diesel fuel is still running only about 10% more than the cost of gasoline.

Let's see ... a 10% premium in cost for a 20% increase in fuel energy. Those are the type of economics that work for me when we talk "diesel".

You folks are still blind to the real economics of driving a $100,000 rig with a $0.50 to $0.60/mile driver hauling 40,000 to almost 60,000 lbs of goods. At 60 mph and 5 mpg, he's using 12 gallons per hour .... if diesel fuel went up from $1.50 to $3.50 per gallon over the last few years (which is about what it's done) ... then the fuel cost per hour of operation went up from $18.00/hour to $42.00/hour, or from $0.30/mile to $0.70 per mile. Even with the more than doubling of the fuel expense increase, it's a small fraction of the overall operating value of the operation. Let's take a typical cargo ... say 9,000 gallons of gasoline ... now worth $3.00/gallon .... that's a $27,000.00 load. If the driver goes a nominal distance to make the delivery, we're talking only $48.00 more money to make the haul (both ways ... loaded out, empty back). Incrementally, $48.00 is a very small component cost of the fuel delivery. Relatively speaking, a $27,000 load is pretty inexpensive ... I've seen a lot of trailers going down the road with half-million dollar loads of goods ....
Yes , we do it every day. Our average load is worth 300 to 800 thousand ( industrial CNC machinery ) , . The customers are bitching however , @ 30% fuel surcharge , but , they pay it. For a regular load the rates are now 3.00 per mile , plus the fuel surcharge. Still a good deal , as you say.
I still love my little Kei truck , but , I would'n try to make a living with it. Haha. Great for the farm , I have a 72" plow , and oversize tires and wheels. We will see this winter how it does against the Mule , at least , I am inside......
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:07 AM
 
1,573 posts, read 4,052,374 times
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Diesel is the obvious choice for large trucks used for work, but has yet to prove itself in the US market for cars, that's all I'm saying. You can blame very stringent environmental regulations, which I can appreciate but not necessarily agree with (maybe instead of demanding more stringent auto emissions, we should tackle the problem in its source- congestion taxes).

However, those alternative vehicles and diesel cars, I'm imagining them in a different world, not in the US of today. The US is going to have to change the way we go about our lives in response to the decline in new oil discoveries and increase in demand from China. It may not happen right away but it will have to happen eventually.
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Old 11-17-2007, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Way on the outskirts of LA LA land.
3,051 posts, read 11,563,986 times
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I think there are a lot of things that can be done in this country now to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, but not eliminate it. One big thing we could do today is to develop and implement more natural gas propulsion for automobiles. The technology exists, and is relatively clean burning. I also believe electric vehicles should be more fully developed, especially for use in metropolitan areas. To make E.V. technology work, however, would require a clean and efficient source of electricity. This is where we need to invest further in nuclear power. I know that nuclear power scares a lot of people, but it is the only conceivable power generation technology that is readily available and clean burning, so to speak. I know all about wind and solar technologies, but they both require significant amounts of real estate to be effective, and are not cost effective for the amount of electricity produced. Finally, we need to stretch each gallon of oil that is used by building and operating more efficient vehicles that consume petroleum fuel. This is where diesel technology is needed. With small diesel powered vehicles getting 50 or more miles per gallon, there is certainly a market for them here. I can't understand the mindset that these vehicles should not be allowed in the U.S. because of strict emissions standards. While tailpipe emissions might be slightly higher than what is here now (and can be improved on), emissions per mile would be significantly lower, as was pointed out earlier. With the clean burning technologies that are available, diesel engines should be available for use in small vehicles now.
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Old 11-17-2007, 04:42 PM
 
11,550 posts, read 52,959,916 times
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Mag ... you're still creating "facts" and assumptions that are totally baseless, unfounded, and ignorant of the actual vehicles available NOW and PROVEN in many hundreds of millions of miles of diesel driving in the USA.

Inner city delivery vehicles are Diesel powered, have been for years. Inter-City delivery vehicles are diesel powered, have been for years. Fleet service vehicles, emergency vehicles, etc., are diesel powered, and have been for years. Mid-size people movers (airport vans, etc) are diesel powered, and have been for years. City Buses have been diesel powered for years. School buses have been diesel powered for years. And, for many years, over half of the cars MB sold in the USA each year were diesel powered by folks who appreciated and enjoyed the low-cost fuel and cars built for high mileage. VW sold many, many, diesel powered cars for people who appreciated the high fuel economy of these vehicles. 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups that are seriously used for load hauling are predominantly diesel powered.

If you haven't seen all of these uses of diesel vehicles around you for decades, then you're simply in denial of diesel use.

Are there any other alternative clean fuel technologies proven over many miles of driving? Propane.

The economics of E-85 or ethanol are, so far, pure BS. They're a net energy consumer, not a viable source of clean energy.

From what I see of your comments, you want the USA to reduce itself to something less than a third world economy ....
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