What is the point of all these fast 400-500 HP cars? (coupes, race car)
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As for the Lincoln, the new ones can't hold much of a candle to the older models.
20 years from now, that Audi A8 wouldn't be suitable to be given away much less sold. Sale for a new Lincoln. There will be no rebuilding of any of those cars, no refurbishing the electronics which eventually fail. Why? Because 20 years from now (heck, 10 years from now) no one will want either of them unless they can't afford anything else. Sure they get you from point A to point B in quiet comfort.
rubbish. there will always be someone rebuilding engines transmissions, rear ends, electronics, etc. in fact there will also be people creating new electronics systems for the current cars, and there will be people that retrofit newer electronics into older cars. 20years from now the hot setup may be someone swapping some 750hp engine/drive train into the 2012 lincoln MKZ. you never know what will happen in the future.
rubbish. there will always be someone rebuilding engines transmissions, rear ends, electronics, etc. in fact there will also be people creating new electronics systems for the current cars, and there will be people that retrofit newer electronics into older cars. 20years from now the hot setup may be someone swapping some 750hp engine/drive train into the 2012 lincoln MKZ. you never know what will happen in the future.
Yes. Who ever would have thought Fox Mustangs would become popular hot rods?
rubbish. there will always be someone rebuilding engines transmissions, rear ends, electronics, etc. in fact there will also be people creating new electronics systems for the current cars, and there will be people that retrofit newer electronics into older cars. 20years from now the hot setup may be someone swapping some 750hp engine/drive train into the 2012 lincoln MKZ. you never know what will happen in the future.
There are always rebuilders but if you want to take a look at what the future might hold, look at what's happening now. The mid to late 80s is the real watershed time in vehicles. Prior to that, many vehicles used the same body-on-frame technology they'd used since the first horseless carriages debuted in the latter part of the 19th century. Most of the engines in domestic vehicles in that time period were based on 1960s carbureted pushrod 2V designs. Yeah, they might have had hardened exhaust valve seats and low compression to deal with pisswater unleaded gas, EGR, and a catalytic converter. But they were still pretty simple to work on and people can and do work on them. Compare that to today's cars with turbocharged 4V VVT DOHC valvetrains and encrypted ECUs directing multiple turbochargers to feed small DI four-banger engines. (Note: The ECUs are encrypted so people don't turn up the boost and grenade engines on "the manual says it's okay" 87 octane pisswater gasoline while still under warranty.) The "newer classic" car crowd who works on 1970s and 1980s era vehicles largely avoids the electronic stuff and unibody vehicles. They would rather bolt on a carb and carb intake to a 1980s vehicle rather than mess with even an unencrypted 8-bit ECU working at single-digits MHz with only a few sensors (such as the early Ford EEC-IVs.) Just look at the folks beating their heads against a wall working with the early EFI systems with tools like TwEECer who just say "F it" and go to a carb. I am not afraid of computers (I have done C programming for hire and am typing this from a Unix server) but the thought of having to sic a quad-CPU computer with six high-end GPUs for months on end to decrypt an ECU just to try to adjust fuel mapping is disgusting when I can do the same thing with a wrench and a few minutes with a carbed setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrendanSWM
Yes. Who ever would have thought Fox Mustangs would become popular hot rods?
Hey, don't trash on the Fox bodies. They were doggy stock due to the EPA's idiocy but they were still simple enough to work on, and people did so. They were also small and lightweight, and now due to their age, largely exempt from emissions regulations. So you can swap in/modify engines to your heart's content and go fast. I guarantee you that I can build up a Fox body to run much faster for the same money than any Mod motor based Mustang for anywhere near the same money. A 460 swaps into a Fox body pretty easily and those have a huge power potential compared to the small-block Mod motors than fit into later SN95 and later Mustangs. The Mod motors, specifically the "Mod children" Boss 6.2 and Coyote 5.0 are potent engines but you still can't overcome the fact that they give up 1.3-2.5 liters to even a stock 460, and the 460 can be easily stroked to 8.5 liters with a 4.3" crank and can be easily modified to make huge power numbers on even pump gas. Sure, you can put a blower on a Mod but you can do so on a 460 too, and the 460 will still make quite a bit more power. Those folks living in corn country where E85 is available at pretty well every pump and at a buck cheaper a gallon than 87 octane pisswater can do even better as you can run a 12.5-13.0:1 CR on that 105 octane stuff (vs. about 10.0:1 on 91 octane premium gas) and make absolutely ridiculous power.
There are always rebuilders but if you want to take a look at what the future might hold, look at what's happening now. The mid to late 80s is the real watershed time in vehicles. Prior to that, many vehicles used the same body-on-frame technology they'd used since the first horseless carriages debuted in the latter part of the 19th century. Most of the engines in domestic vehicles in that time period were based on 1960s carbureted pushrod 2V designs. Yeah, they might have had hardened exhaust valve seats and low compression to deal with pisswater unleaded gas, EGR, and a catalytic converter. But they were still pretty simple to work on and people can and do work on them. Compare that to today's cars with turbocharged 4V VVT DOHC valvetrains and encrypted ECUs directing multiple turbochargers to feed small DI four-banger engines. (Note: The ECUs are encrypted so people don't turn up the boost and grenade engines on "the manual says it's okay" 87 octane pisswater gasoline while still under warranty.) The "newer classic" car crowd who works on 1970s and 1980s era vehicles largely avoids the electronic stuff and unibody vehicles. They would rather bolt on a carb and carb intake to a 1980s vehicle rather than mess with even an unencrypted 8-bit ECU working at single-digits MHz with only a few sensors (such as the early Ford EEC-IVs.) Just look at the folks beating their heads against a wall working with the early EFI systems with tools like TwEECer who just say "F it" and go to a carb. I am not afraid of computers (I have done C programming for hire and am typing this from a Unix server) but the thought of having to sic a quad-CPU computer with six high-end GPUs for months on end to decrypt an ECU just to try to adjust fuel mapping is disgusting when I can do the same thing with a wrench and a few minutes with a carbed setup.
early efi systems were not the best to begin with, especially the EEC lll. many of them were "run away" cars, where the mechanics would run away to lunch so they wouldnt have to work on the cars because of their limited diagnostic capability. that has changed over the years, and with a federal law that requires the automakers to supply copies of the software code they use, newer reprogrammers are much better than the old tweecer was. in fact with most aftermarket programmers the work is pretty much done for you. no longer do you have to figure out how to change the fuel or timing maps, that has been done already. you just answer a few questions and the programmer takes over from there. the modern EFI systems are quite easy to work with.
Personally, I'm content with watching middle aged men driving super cars at excessive speeds on Top Gear. I'll live vicariously through that. Very entertaining.
However, I'd rather cruise at 70mph in a Lincoln Town Car with a comfortable ride and low road noise. Or, better yet, and Audi A8 (if I could afford one). I find that much more enjoyable than hearing the constant drone of 500 barely muffled horsepowers vibrating my spine on a 4 hour road trip. Most guys who own muscle cars have them as a second vehicle for weekend drives. Jay Leno is probably the ultimate car guy, but he drives a Prius during the week (or so he says). Driving a muscle car and pushing its limits every day is for young guys who haven't yet realized how mortal they are (yet).
You better watch out for us middle aged men in our hot rods. We just might know a thing or 2 about making them more comfortable than you think and quicker, faster and getting better mpg than you think !
PS, My last racecar, got driven to work 3-4 days a week. I would put in the trailer every night, and then leave it in there on Fridays so as soon as I got home it was ready to go to Friday night drags.
You better watch out for us middle aged men in our hot rods. We just might know a thing or 2 about making them more comfortable than you think and quicker, faster and getting better mpg than you think !
as well as better handling. imagine being blow away on a road course by a 71 torino!
Also, these factory forced induction cars can often be made much faster for cheap - 500+ horsepower Cobras and 400+ horsepower BMW 1/335i's are common.
Hey, don't trash on the Fox bodies. They were doggy stock due to the EPA's idiocy but they were still simple enough to work on, and people did so. They were also small and lightweight, and now due to their age, largely exempt from emissions regulations. So you can swap in/modify engines to your heart's content and go fast. I guarantee you that I can build up a Fox body to run much faster for the same money than any Mod motor based Mustang for anywhere near the same money. A 460 swaps into a Fox body pretty easily and those have a huge power potential compared to the small-block Mod motors than fit into later SN95 and later Mustangs. The Mod motors, specifically the "Mod children" Boss 6.2 and Coyote 5.0 are potent engines but you still can't overcome the fact that they give up 1.3-2.5 liters to even a stock 460, and the 460 can be easily stroked to 8.5 liters with a 4.3" crank and can be easily modified to make huge power numbers on even pump gas. Sure, you can put a blower on a Mod but you can do so on a 460 too, and the 460 will still make quite a bit more power. Those folks living in corn country where E85 is available at pretty well every pump and at a buck cheaper a gallon than 87 octane pisswater can do even better as you can run a 12.5-13.0:1 CR on that 105 octane stuff (vs. about 10.0:1 on 91 octane premium gas) and make absolutely ridiculous power.
I am not "trashing" Fox bodies. I recognize they are now very popular with a particular set. However, when they were made, no one ever thought of them as potential race cars. They were slow, ugly, and not very economical. They also tended to rust rapidly. I had one. We lived on a dirt track and it was down for repairs nearly weekly. Mostly the suspension parts needed replacing. At the time, I could find nothing good about it. I finally gave it to a neighbor's child. If I had it today, I could sell it for a substantial sum to someone like you.
If you went back to the time of their making and told people, "In 2013 these will be immensely popular with certain people to convert into race cars." They would snicker and roll their eyes. Perhaps call you a looney.
My point was not these are necessarily bad cars to modify. My point is in response to what was said previously, that you never know what unexpected vehicle may turn into the race car of choice in the future. It could be anything, even something considered slow and junky right now. Perhaps in 2028, the 2013 Chevrolet Spark will be the hot ticket for racer builders like yourself.
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