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I don't take kindly to people insinuating that I am a liar... or perhaps that I was hallucinating. Neither is, or was, true.
I'm talking about Snyder Olds/Pontiac/Cadillac in Grove City, PA. You should know that $40-something per hour was the going rate out there. Before choosing the Cadillac dealer for work on my car, I checked a local garage. Their rate was a bit less... $40 or 42, if I'm not mistaken... but they gave me an estimate of two hours for a job that the dealer said would take only one... so I went with the dealer. Is it possible that the shop gave me a discount without me knowing it, because I had such an old car that was relatively easy to work on? Perhaps. Is it possible that they gave me a discount because I was a student at the local college? Perhaps. All I know is that I got another ballpark quote from a local garage, and nobody at the dealer ever told me that I was getting any kind of discount.
Also, Grove City never was one of the cheaper places in PA. It's not Montgomery County, but as the home of a college which has occupied a unique niche in higher education for many decades, the town is healthy and as a result, a tad pricey at least for houses. So there's no reason why Grove City would have been unusually cheap for anything.
Let me repeat myself: I know what Cadillac dealerships were charging in 1999. It was NOT $44 per hour. Period.
Is it possible that they charged "list price" for parts, so as to pad their bottom line?
See, you did it again!
Your language reflects your projection of how you perceive other businesses conduct their business.
Even when you acknowledge that this dealership gave you the best service that you've ever received ...
you think in terms of "pad" their bottom line.
the connotation is obvious.
Everybody but you is a rip-off.
PS: I know what the dealerships in my region were charging for shop labor rates because I priced my shop in line with them. I hadn't seen $40-odd/hour labor rates since the 1970's ....
As well, when Lexus came into my area, they were aggressively hiring what they believed were the best techs in the auto repair industry, and focused upon visiting with the M-B and BMW techs in my area. They approached me and offered a job with better benefits and a guarantee of X flat rate billable hours per week (at 50% split) at a rate far in excess of what you're saying that your Caddy dealership was charging. Had I not been obligated with leases at the time, the offer was very attractive. Similar to an unsolicited offer I got from an M-B dealer in SanFrancisco, I couldn't walk away from my other obligations (and SF didn't have ready access for me to an airstrip for my plane or a reasonably priced marina for my boats, which would have added enormously to my living costs). But both dealers were offering me an annual income guarantee that exceeded $100K per year ... and that was in the late 1980's, not years later as you suggest the labor rates would still have been so low.
In perspective ... top techs at the GM, Ford, and Chrysler line dealers were making comparable incomes to the BMW techs, who were pretty much the local wage leaders at the time in our area. The dealerships needed to be competitive at the top levels because they knew that techs would walk down the street for a better income, even if it meant having to do some product line retraining and some lower income for a few months when starting out. As well, the top guys in the Class 8 heavy shops were making comparable wages.
A final area of these tech skill sets was interesting ... the guys I know who left automotive flat rating and went into building maintenance for big Class A high rise office buildings topped out at comparable wages (near $100K/year), but they had regular hours & income, better benefits and retirement packages, and didn't need to supply their own tools as they did in automotive so were able to sell off their toolboxes and hand tools except what they wanted for their personal car maintenance/repairs. IMO, most of them did better with comparable skills in the long run than they did in automotive service, although there were far fewer jobs available than automotive. Another friend of mine who'd been working at a 'benz dealership (ass't parts manager) left automotive for the building maintenance trade (it had the advantage of steady hours and income so she could manage her kids school time better) and was making $60K/year salaried income within two years. She was offered the top job at another building in 1992, but they needed her to work a schedule that didn't fit with her kids ... she walked away from the offer at $100K.
Somehow, you manage to conflate your idealized expenses of my business ... which you assert shouldn't be as much as they are, like some of the taxes .... with what I actually have to pay to keep my doors open. Yeah, right. The next time I get a tax bill, I'll just send it back with a note that RG says we shouldn't have to pay these amounts.
Nor do you seem to live in the real world where the CPI doesn't address the fact that the business expenses attributable to W/C, UI, EPA, OSHA, Hazardous Waste charges, etc. ... didn't exist to the levels that they do now and have to be paid.
Keep on dreamin' of those unicorns ....
Fight it. Enough people on your side will bring down the taxes and regulations you cited which drive up your costs of doing business. You'll win if you have enough help.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
Wow, I found a cabinet grand piano, perfect for teaching students, on CraigsList for FREE! in my town. Come haul it away! Perfect condition, has been professionally tuned up 6 months ago. IIRC the ad correctly, it was a Mason & Hamlin piano. They needed to get it gone immediately because they were transferred overseas and had no further use for it, didn't want to store it for the 2 year deployment.
Better still: I found a two-year old Grotrian student upright piano that was only used for a couple of months at the local college music program for $150!
Don't make me laugh. I've been playing piano for almost as long as I've been alive. I've also helped students find, and buy, decent pianos in their price range. I can assure you that that "perfect condition" piano was about as "perfect" as a "perfect condition" car that someone lists for $400 on Craigslist. If it was THAT great, they'd have been able to sell it for SOME money... even if only to a pawn shop or music store.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
and the absolute Best Deal of them ALL: A Steinway small ebony Baby Grand for $3,500. Well maintained in a humidty/temp controlled studio in a pro musician's home (I know the guy, he's a retired HS music teacher who has a country/western band that plays the local bar circuit. His daughter, now a junior high school music teacher here, learned to play on this piano and says it's one of the best sounding she's ever heard. Recently tuned, too.
That I can see.
However, my piano is one that was bought brand new in 1989 for $3,000 and these days even in used condition could probably sell for at least $1,200. You get a point for trying, at least.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
Anyway, now that I now that you could be teaching your piano students on a piano for FREE!, anything that you charge for the use of that piano is a total RIP-OFF!
You could be fixing cars on tools you got for FREE! as well, but I'd bet you don't... for the same reason why I don't teach students on instruments I got for FREE!
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
-two electronic keyboards
My buddy that owns a chain of pawnshops along the Front Range here gets these bought all day long for $15-25 each and sells them for $75. Famous names Clavinova, Yamaha, a whole bunch of others I don't know the names of ... but even his top of the line pro set he bought awhile back and is featured in his music area display in one of his stores is only $300!.
Guaranteed, it isn't top of the line. Did you buy your professional auto repair tools used from a pawn shop? If not, I'm betting that it's for the same reason why I don't buy my musical gear from pawn shops.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
-microphones with stands
Boy, here's another accessory that's cheap cheap cheap! I've seen everything from Radio Shack stuff at $5, great for students ...
to my Beyer and similar pro gear mikes at a couple hundred bucks apiece.
Again, you'd be a rip-off if you charged more than pennies per month for your students to use these items.
No self-respecting teacher uses "cheap cheap cheap" gear. But again, at least you're trying. There's hope.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
-powered mixer (1,000 Watts)
Again, my buddy with the pawn shops sees this all day long for peanuts. A couple hundred bucks buys pro-quality gear and gets resold for not much more than that because the only way he can get rid of it is to sell it cheap cheap cheap cheap! Old Bogen equipment is even less ... $15-20 apiece.
You're still a rip-off if you're charging more than pennies a month to use this stuff.
I paid $700 for mine brand new so that I could have a good piece of equipment that did exactly what I wanted it to. I didn't buy the crappy Behringer mixer... I bought the top-of-the-line Yamaha unit which had two on-board effects engines instead of one.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
Again, you're a rip-off if you're charging more than pennies a month to use these items.
You don't get it, apparently.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
-two guitars
Whew wee ...
guitars! I'm impressed, but I'll bet you're not using NBN's or Martin pro other niche pro-quality performance stuff.
again, Yamaha, Goya, Fender, Ibanez, or a host of student level teaching guitars at my local music shop are $100 items, complete with extra pro-quality strings. Down at the pawn shop, the ones on the rack at those prices can usually be had for 1/2 off.
Your attitude shows that you're not the type of person with whom I would ever want to do business. But since I don't have to do business with you, that's not so terrible. I'll stick with educating you.
Acoustic guitar: Under $300, I'm sure. 'Twas a gift.
Electric guitar: ~$700 when you consider the mods I've done to it. I don't teach on student-model guitars for the same reason why you don't do automotive work using bargain-bin made-in-China tools from the local auto parts store.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
-two bass guitars
Wow, you really had to splurge on these ... I'll bet at least $75 each.
You're obviously fueling your negativity and perhaps I'm not helping the problem by correcting you, but at least I have good intentions. $175 for the electric bass, $550 for the acoustic. I get good stuff, not pawn-shop specials.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
-full drum set
Wow, a "full drum set". I'm very impressed. My buddy has about 20 of them in stock, I don't know all the names but he was pretty proud of one with a bunch of Zildjian high-hats and whatever else they had to go with it. Sticks not included. $250-400 would be plenty to get out the door with a quality set, and he said that some were pro musician level stuff.
You're actually not far off on this. I am into mine for about $500 because it's the only instrument I own which is likely to get the tar beaten out of it by my students. My piano and keyboard are tough as nails and nobody will be able to beat them up... but a drum set can be beaten up quite easily. So I didn't overspend on it. Craigslist special for this one, with some additions that I chose to make it more "worthy".
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
-computer
OMG! Who would have imagined? needing a computer in your business is such a burden!
I've got 7 in my shop, ranging from desktops to laptops to iPad 2's. That doesn't include the "computer" of my top of the line $12,000 Snap-On diagnostic hand-held that requires a monthly subscription and annual updates (at $1,000!) to put it to beneficial use.
I also had to have extra seating for parents and siblings who stayed during lessons, and sometimes I had to run the TV to keep siblings occupied.
OMG! "had to run the TV", what an incredible overhead expense you've suffered with. Even brand new flat screen TV's of decent size for personal viewing are $200 Brand New for famous names at WalMart. I bought one ... I confess, it was on sale ... a 22" diagonal screen with built-in DVD player from KMart a year ago for $220! the next larger rig, at around 30" diagonal was just under $300!, but it was too big to fit into my little RV. Anyway, it must cost you at least pennies per hour in electricity to run your TV for the duration of the lessons, a huge expense for you.
Chairs! Oh my, another huge expense. Outside of CList take 'em away for free, comfortable chairs for my shop waiting room cost me $25/apiece. My wife likes the older pressed back wooden chairs of quarter sawn oak, so she shops the flea markets and auctions for them ... rarely pays over $10/apiece for them if they don't need refinishing/refastening; less if they need work. She splurged once and bought a very ornate one for $35 that was in perfect condition. If you've got as many chairs for your students and clients as I do in my waiting room & offices, you must have spent at least ... what, $150? that's a very crushing overhead expense, isn't it?
Do you charge for the use of this stuff? got a coin meter by the TV so the kids can put quarters in it so you can get a profit off the costs of the electricity to run it?
Steve thought that teaching music required no extra equipment. I was telling him what it does require. Evidently you missed that part. Good thing I came back, eh?
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
But apparently no extra cost to you for the "space required" over the cost of your residence.
Not true, dear Sunny. I could've gotten away with a smaller house had I not needed the extra space for lessons. Smaller house = less monthly rent.
[quote=sunsprit;32233224] And all that equipment! Wow ... I've got more investment in the corner of one of the smaller drawers in any of my toolbox than you've got total in your student teaching level instruments.
[quote]
Might be true if I actually possessed "student teaching level" instruments... but, like you, I possess professional-grade equipment. Nice try, though.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
If it costs you $1/mile to commute, do you discount this to 45 cents to your clients because the fed lets your deduct 55 cents per mile on your tax form? or do you Rip Off your clients by charging them $1/mile and still claiming the tax write-off?
If I deduct 55 cents per mile for commuting, it actually saves me only maybe 15 cents per mile as that's the reduction in my taxes due to reducing taxable income by 55 cents. Another nice try, but like the others, it falls short. I don't charge by the mile for commuting - I work it into my monthly cost for lessons.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
It's me being a rip-off if it costs me $8,000 per month in fixed overhead expenses to put the key in my shop door 5 days/week for regular business hours even though I may not have any cars in the shop to work on?
With car repair/maintenance being an "emergency service", demanded by everyone who drives at some point, if you have no cars to work on, you're doing something terribly wrong in your business.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
But it's OK for you to cry poor if you "wasn't making money if I wasn't teaching"? What, pray tell, are your overhead expenses for taxes, insurance, leased space, or over and beyond your normal household utilitites expenses if you don't have a student that you're teaching for a day?
Not a heck of a lot. But at the same time, I never made much money teaching. Doing it full-time would be a decent salary but certainly not enough to get rich by anyone's standards. However, you have to figure that music lessons are a luxury market. Few people demand them. Even fewer would demand them if the family's income went down... but everyone who drives, which is just about everybody these days, demands auto repair at some point. And if they need it but can't afford it, there are welfare programs to pay for auto repair so they can get to work! There is no such welfare program to pay for music lessons for the poor. Teachers may donate lessons to poor people but that's the extent of it.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
You're simply past the point of any common sense about understanding how business expenses have to be recovered, or the value of the services that others provide. What you've consistently posted here is nothing more than your projections of virtually zero overhead upon other businesses as being rip-offs and making too much money.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
If your overhead per month is $8,000, and you're charging $80 per hour, you break even at 100 hours of labor. If you work full-time, approximately 170 hours per month when you figure that there are an average of ~4.3 weeks in a month, that extra 70 hours x $80 = $5,600 per month. Times 12 = $67,200 per year. Not bad, all things considered, for a full-time job. However, I'm guessing that you pay for this shop so that you can employ other mechanics. Assuming your fixed expenses are covered, and you have to pay $30 per hour for one employee (between salary, benefits, payroll taxes, etc), and that person works a full 40 billable hours per week, the extra $50 x 170 = $8,500 per month profit for you. Again, seems decent.
I'm willing to listen to you talk about the auto repair business if you're willing to stop being snotty, but you can't find it surprising that I look at a business where people are being charged $75 - 110 per hour (plus a markup on parts) and no shop ever seems to be devoid of customers, and find it hard to believe that it's considered difficult to make money in this business. My guess is that, if my neighbor was charging me $25 per hour for his work, he wasn't able to make quite that much per hour working at a nearby shop. Since his work was always top-notch, I can only conclude that the offered salaries at such shops were substantially lower.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
Congratulations, you've managed to teach me all about how ignorant you are about being in business.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
I know everything I'd need to know about fixed-expense businesses. I was also once a landlord for 17 mobile homes. There were fixed expenses I had to cover every month no matter how many of them were actively generating rent. I had to pay lot rent on the homes, a loan payment, and yearly property taxes, no matter how much money I was bringing in. Some months I made money, some months I lost money. On my tax returns, I always lost a bit... because there were other expenses such as repairs, advertising, etc. I've done that rodeo enough. I can look back and see that there was quite a bit that I did wrong. I can say that someone who isn't covering down on expenses in such a business where there is always a need (such as auto repair, or housing) is doing it wrong because I have been that guy who did it wrong. My mistakes as a landlord were:
-renting to just anyone, because I preferred to have the homes rented as opposed to vacant
-having the wrong person manage them
-buying property in an area where I would not want to live, personally
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
Agreed, and it's really too bad you don't appear to have a teaching personality based upon your lack of critical thinking displayed on these pages.
If there's anyone who doesn't seem to be able to think beyond the pawn shop, 'tis you, my solescent friend.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
Wow ... a revelation! Stop the presses! Hold those electrons up, would you, C-D?
Dude... grow up and let's keep this civil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
You mean that it costs time, effort, and money to market and advertise to capture clients for a service business? I'm shocked! Stunned! Thanks for verifying for us that a business has to do this to stay in business.
As well, it's a "statistical fact" that clients turn over in over businesses, too. Like they may buy a new car under warranty that isnt' going to be serviced in the aftermarket. Or maybe they move away. Or maybe they have a change in their income level and can't afford to maintain their cars for awhile ... I used to see stockbrokers and especially commodity brokers who went through their boom and bust economic cycles.
Every motorized vehicle out there is going to NEED repair and maintenance at some point. EVERY LAST ONE. I sold cars for a while and I was told by a manager to say to my customers, if they ask for any kind of guarantee about the car's condition, "the only thing I can guarantee you is that this car will eventually need repair, as they all do". Even the most reliable of 'em need oil changes, filter changes, etc... and if they don't get that maintenance, they will come to need even more expensive repairs. I've NEVER seen an auto repair shop that was void of business. Even the places that just open up, and don't advertise in any observable way, seem to be teeming with business inside of a month.
If you add up the total number of school-age children in an area, and divide into that the number who ever take private music lessons, I promise you it will be less than 10%. The difference between music lessons and auto repair is that nobody ever NEEDS music lessons. You will never find anyone saying "I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M GONNA DO IF I DON'T GET A PIANO LESSON BY THE WEEKEND!" or anything even remotely similar. Since music lessons are always "expendable" but car repair never is, it's much harder to retain customers as a music teacher no matter how good you are. If you're an excellent mechanic, your clients are there for life unless they move away. Plus, they'll refer others to you when such people ask "who do you use for car repair?". Might they buy a newer car and thus not need your services quite so much? Sure, but someone has to buy that person's old car, and chances are, it'll be someone local who might then use your services
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
Everything, because it reveals how you cannot understand that the costs of providing services in other businesses are no different than the problems that you recognize present in your business!
The unicorn concepts of asserting that I shouldn't charge you for professional services because you don't think those costs should be charged to me simply doesn't acknowledge reality for others but you recognize that these are legitimate costs for your professional services. Idiotic!
Are you actually reading what I wrote? I was asked how much I think you should pay in commercial property taxes. This was a request for my personal opinion, not my factual evaluation of your present situation. My personal opinion is that property taxes are crap and nobody should be subject thereto. The present fact of your situation (and everyone's) is that the government owns all property and if you don't pay your property taxes, your beneficial title to that property (which is naught more than a permission slip from the government to use that property as you wish so long as your wishes don't run afoul of property use laws and zoning ordinances) will be revoked and the government will sell that beneficial title to anyone who is willing to pay your taxes for you.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
PS: Two can play your silly little game.
I've repeatedly explained the underlying costs of my business to be able to provide the level of professional service that my clients epect to receive.
Repeatedly? Not seeing that, bud.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
Your consistent response has been to deny that I have those costs, or that I should even be charged them, or that my choice of using top quality tools to effect my repair is excessive because you've seen tooling (for example, a scan tool) that is a fraction of the price then the one that I do use. You assert that I'm a rip-off because you can inpute that you could replicate what I do for a fraction of the costs that it takes to do so.
I never said that. If it were true, I wouldn't know what shops charge because I'd do all of the work myself. I did say that my neighbor did a better job than the shops did, for about one-third of what the shops charged.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
So, I'll play your game. You're a rip-off because I know that I could replicate your entire business model for less than a few hundred dollars;
You could get trained to the point of being virtuosic on even one instrument (I teach five), and obtain professional-grade equipment for all five of those instruments, plus obtain some form of space in which to teach music lessons, for less than a few hundred dollars?
In America?
I suggest stand-up comedy as a career for you should you ever tire of turning a wrench.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
I've checked with reliable sources and I know for a fact what it costs to have the musical instruments, equipment, chairs, TV, and so forth that are essential to your business. Heck, I've even seen 4 pro level dual turntable or CD DJ outfits at my buddy's pawn shop that can be had for under $250 ... and make no mistake, they are barely used pro-level party DJ gear, guaranteed.
Of course they are, guaranteed. Your buddy whose pawn shop you uphold as the gold standard of what things should cost for any professional other than yourself would not advertise his stuff as "almost used-up junk that someone couldn't sell for what it's truly worth, hence why it's here" now would he? There ain't a pawn shop or music store out there that's going to give you more than 30% of what that stuff could sell for, USED, in a shop or on eBay. USED is USED. Nobody believes "barely used" because everything is "barely used". USED is USED. If I buy a DJ setup for $1,000 and walk out of the store with it, take it out of the package, mess around with it for a bit, then eventually sell it to a pawn shop because it is out of the 30-day return period at the other store, I'm going to get MAYBE $200 for it. They'll slap a price of $599 on it because it's USED. You're not fooling me here. There's "professional", and there's PROFESSIONAL.
For a good analogy, here's my thought. I see Snap-On tool trucks and MATCO tool trucks all over the place. I don't see these brands sold in stores. When I go to a shop, I see Snap-On and MATCO names everywhere. Now, I don't have to ask myself why I don't see names like Craftsman and Stanley on the tools used by professionals. Craftsman and Stanley may be good. Snap-On and MATCO are PROFESSIONAL. I should know. I have a couple of Snap-On tools that my uncle gave me as gifts when he was selling for Snap-On, and those things are bulletproof. If I were serious about repairing cars, I'd spring for some Snap-On tools myself. Given that I'm no more than a glorified tinkerer, the lower-name tools I have right now suffice.
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Originally Posted by sunsprit
You shouldn't be charging more than $1.95 per hour of your teaching services because I can prove that you don't have any expenses that would justify any more for your talents or time. And don't even think about waving a degree in education or music in front of me, I've got more tied up in my education to do what I do than you do ....
So not only do you feel that I should be earning less than 1/3 of minimum wage for my SKILLED work, but you also think that you've got more invested into your education than I do? Are you talking about money or time? I don't know who'd win on money but I'd go punch for punch with you on "time".
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
See how easy it is? I, like you, could be wrong about my assumptions about your costs and hence, the underlying expenses which must be recaptured before you make a profit at the end of a day. But you've posted that we're all nothing but rip-offs without really knowing those costs, and I'll return the favor to you. You're nothing but a rip-off who projects your rip-off business model upon others.
Have a nice day.
I said nothing of the kind. If you interpreted it that way, you need to read in more detail. I said that, based upon the prices I've been charged for truly competent auto repair in the past, how unreliable auto mechanics seem to be on average, and how inflation has devalued our money from 1999 until now, I find it unreasonable that shops charge upwards of $75 per hour of labor for auto repair. I don't even know if they're charging me for real time - they always quote "book time". Suppose "book time" is two hours and it only takes the guy one hour? I still get charged for two! Some shops will charge you "clock time" just to TALK about your car with you! I had that happen once, at a dealership!
When I teach music lessons, the student gets a quality music lesson, EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have not gotten quality mechanic work EVERY SINGLE TIME... I'd say it might be half of the time. But I say this. If you, as a mechanic, earn my trust by proving your competency, not trying to stick it to me on parts, and not charging me for any more labor than you actually put into my car, I'm going to be loyal to you and I might even overlook the occasional snafu. I won't argue your price if I have no reason to believe that you're ripping me off. But given how many times I HAVE felt ripped off by mechanics, y'all are at a disadvantage in my mind. That's why I would want to buy my own parts and then pay for labor - because I feel like I have been ripped off on parts before. Contrast that with me. I would buy music books at the local store for a discount, plus sales tax, and bring them home. My students would buy them from me, paying me full cover price and no sales tax. It was essentially "I'll buy the book you need for you, you just pay me for it when you get to your next lesson and pick it up". The extra few cents I got in the difference between my discount plus tax and the cover price may have covered down a bit on the gas and drive time to get the books from the store. Nobody ever complained about that. I always explained it to people and they were totally fine with it. I explained it so that they WOULDN'T think they were getting ripped off on books. That's what this thread was all about. People wouldn't buy their own parts and then pay for labor at a shop if they felt that the shop wouldn't rip them off on parts. After all, why bother getting the parts yourself, if the shop will get the same parts for you at the same price you'd pay for those parts? Mechanics have managed to get a reputation as ripoff artists. They have to overcome that reputation somehow. I have my ideas about how this could be done but I have no idea how feasible they'd be. However, one good way to start is by NOT marking up parts in any way unless the parts store charges extra for delivery. If they do, charge that exact same delivery fee to the customer and explain that it's only being added to the customer's bill because the parts store adds it to the shop's bill.
Your language reflects your projection of how you perceive other businesses conduct their business.
Even when you acknowledge that this dealership gave you the best service that you've ever received ...
you think in terms of "pad" their bottom line.
the connotation is obvious.
Everybody but you is a rip-off.
My language reflects my critical thinking (which you think I can't do) regarding GarageLogic's assertion that, in spite of the labor rate charged to me on paper for repairs to my Cadillac, I was not "actually" being charged that labor rate. Given that the numbers always added up to me being charged the $44 per hour that was listed on the bill, the only ways by which that could turn out to be artificially lower than what my actual charge per hour of labor was, would be if the cost of parts was inflated or the hours billed were higher than the hours worked. In so doing, they'd appear to be charging $44 per hour but in actuality they'd have gotten far more per actual hour of labor.
But don't kid yourself. I did believe, and still do, that they operated honestly, charging me only for the hours worked, and not inflating the cost of parts. I never felt that this place was a ripoff. If GarageLogic thinks that they didn't charge me $44 per hour, I can only consider the possibilities. He seems to know more about the experience I had with my own car repairs than I did. What remains for me but to consider the alternatives?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
(and SF didn't have ready access for me to an airstrip for my plane or a reasonably priced marina for my boats, which would have added enormously to my living costs). But both dealers were offering me an annual income guarantee that exceeded $100K per year ... and that was in the late 1980's, not years later as you suggest the labor rates would still have been so low.
If you don't think that's ripping people off, I ask you this. How were you able to afford an airplane and multiple boats? Ain't many people who have those toys. If you're able to afford them at the expense of the people who are barely making it and come to you for car repair so that they can manage to get their next paycheck in this crazy country that has been conned into becoming addicted to vehicular transportation, how is it that you're not a ripoff?
Also, according to the following chart, pediatricians, family practice doctors, and psychiatrists all made an average salary of just over $100,000 per year in 1996 dollars in the late 1980's:
Tell me, if you think you're not a ripoff - why is an auto mechanic's work worth even as much as that of a medical doctor? I guarantee you that the doctor would have you beat in terms of both money AND time that he had invested into his career to be able to do what he does.
These are reasons why people think of auto repair as a ripoff. If you don't like that, well, you need to listen to your customers. This thread was started to discuss one aspect of avoiding being ripped off by a mechanic - buying your own parts. Whether it's to get better parts than the shop would get for you, or to avoid being overcharged for the same parts you could get from the store, it's all the same thing.
Tell me one more thing - do you ever inflate the price of parts at your shop, above what you paid for those parts from the local parts store, to add to your profit? (If you only get parts from a supplier from which the average person wouldn't be able to buy, and which charges you substantially less than what it would cost to get the parts from a store, this question does not pertain to you. I know many shops get parts from local parts stores, and those parts get delivered by couriers in small pickup trucks.)
My language reflects my critical thinking (which you think I can't do) regarding GarageLogic's assertion that, in spite of the labor rate charged to me on paper for repairs to my Cadillac, I was not "actually" being charged that labor rate. Given that the numbers always added up to me being charged the $44 per hour that was listed on the bill, the only ways by which that could turn out to be artificially lower than what my actual charge per hour of labor was, would be if the cost of parts was inflated or the hours billed were higher than the hours worked. In so doing, they'd appear to be charging $44 per hour but in actuality they'd have gotten far more per actual hour of labor.
But don't kid yourself. I did believe, and still do, that they operated honestly, charging me only for the hours worked, and not inflating the cost of parts. I never felt that this place was a ripoff. If GarageLogic thinks that they didn't charge me $44 per hour, I can only consider the possibilities. He seems to know more about the experience I had with my own car repairs than I did. What remains for me but to consider the alternatives?
This is hilarious! Absolutely chock full of crap! Unbelievable.
Repeat the lie all you want, but it's still a lie. The going shop rate for Cadillac dealerships, in the late 90s, was $85 - $90 per hour. You can object all you want, and try to convince yourself otherwise, but you are wrong. You are either completely ignorant, or you are lying. Personally, I suspect both.
All you are doing now is trying to save face. And you really should stop.
I guess I get it but at the same time you have the option to at least make money on the labor. If you turn me away you get nothing.
I own a car repair shop. I would be happy to turn you away and get nothing.....
"Nothing" means none of the below:
No shop space tied up because customer provided wrong parts
No problems with poor quality parts
No arguments about who pays to do the job the second time
No reputation that my shop caters to bottom feeders
No good appreciative customers not scheduled in a timely fashion because I allocated a valuable schedule slot to someone trying to beat the system and cut me out of well-deserved profit
No "customers" who insult me by implying that I am so desperate for work that I need to take in anything that pays SOMETHING even if it is less than my normal and fair price for labor and parts which is required to stay in business and make a decent living. And yes, ABSOLUTELY, the parts I install are marked up. "Buying for one price and selling for another" is a universal practice -- doesn't matter if it is quart of milk at the 7-11, whiskey at the bar, or a light bulb from Home Depot.
Don
All I know is that if I need a new clutch in my car, I can drive to a discount auto parts store, and buy a clutch kit for a $100. Then I take my car over to my mechanic's house. Pay him and his assistant $200 and a six pack of Corona. Two and a half or three hours later, I'm test driving my new clutch. No warrantee needed. I know it was done right, because I watched them do it, and I bought the parts myself.
If I got that work done at a "legitimate" auto repair shop, they would have my car all day long and when I'd go to pick it up, I'd have a bill for $800. I'd also have no idea what they may or may not have done to my car while it was there.
I used to go that route, before I got fed up with the scams that auto repair shops pull. I know not all do things like that, but even if it is done well, it's still too much money to pay.
If the car gets damaged -- possibly due to consumption of the six pack of Corona -- is there insurance to cover it? What if, during the course of the job, someone gets injured? Are you paying cash to someone who cheats on his income tax by not reporting what you paid? Should the cheap clutch kit prove defective down the road, does your mechanic who works out of his house cover the job the second time? Has your mechanic who works out of his house invested in a location zoned commercial, or is his overhead low because he is performing services at a residential location in violation of zoning codes? Not all the issues I bring up may apply, but I wager more do than not. You are comparing the price at a legitimate shop to the price at a non-legitimate location.
For all you guys who complain about the prices,
Why don't you guys open your own shops and you can offer everyone those cheap labor rates and no mark up on prices.
I've never had an auto shop before, have no desire to but even I know that they have tremendous costs and liabilities.
I couldn't imagine how much their liability insurance is with all the equipment and vehicles there.
I couldn't imagine how much a fine is from the EPA for spilled HAZMAT.
I couldn't imagine how much their HVAC system costs to maintain.
I couldn't imagine how much it costs for all their tools and diagnostic equipment is.
If it's a union shop, that's a whole different group of costs and limitations there.
OP, there's a reason why that shop you used is out of business.
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