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Old 12-09-2013, 05:30 PM
 
Location: PNW
455 posts, read 598,284 times
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Considering a HG job is about $2.5k (have to pull the engine) and trans is $4 and some change. That's about right.

I'd keep the Outback but that's me being sentimental (I own an 02 wagon).
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:14 AM
 
11,555 posts, read 53,177,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWarty View Post
Considering a HG job is about $2.5k (have to pull the engine) and trans is $4 and some change. That's about right.

I'd keep the Outback but that's me being sentimental (I own an 02 wagon).
BS.

Pulling the engine on this car has to be one of the easiest jobs ever, second to pulling the engine on an air-cooled VW. There's so few tasks to be done in the Subie, that it's easy ... and well documented for the DIY'er. Open the hood to the vertical position. Remove the Battery and lift out the tray. Drop 6 nuts for the exhaust flanges at the heads, disconnect 5 electrical connectors, two fuel hoses and a vapor recovery hose, drain the coolant and lift out the radiator assembly, disconnect the starter wires (1-plug in and 1 heavy cable), unbolt the A/C compressor and set to the side, disconnect the PS pump hoses, and the remaining bell housing bolts. Support the trans on a floor jack, remove the front motor mounts (3 fasteners per side), and slide the engine out.

I did my first late model Subie OBW engine removal for a clutch job using a handful of wrenches in just a few sizes, on the floor (no hoist) ... and it took me slightly over an hour, not trying to set any speed records (and it's been over 50 years since I started wrenching professionally, so I don't move as fast as I used to). I used my cherry picker to pull the engine. I was kinda' proud of my progress in the time that it took. Head gaskets would have been only about an hour per side additional to replace.

A neighbor of mine who does a lot of these cars doesn't even mess with the cherry picker. On his hoist, he gets everything ready and has his assistant grab the engine on one side while he picks it up on the other. They typically put an Subie OBW engine on the bench in about 35 minutes, and usually have a clutch installed ... driving out the door within 2 hours, start to finish. The assistant is only on the job for a matter of minutes, it's mostly a one-person job but they can each work on a side of the engine for head gaskets if they want to get one of these out the door as a quick-turn project.

With the engine out of the car, the head gasket job is easily done on most engines within an hour per side (to r&r each head and clean up the block deck and head surface), and a bit more time to do an associated task such as replace the timing belt (with tensioner, idler pulleys, and water pump).

Now I thought that was cruising ... until I ran into a Subie specialty shop/dealer in Ft Collins that doesn't even pull the engine to do the head gaskets on these cars. They lift the engine up enough off the motor mounts (after pulling the radiator assembly) to swing the engine from side to side to clear the VC and access the head bolts. The timing belt covers are readily accessed to clear all that area. Total time for a single head gasket replacement: about 2 hours. Add another hour or so if they need to do the other side.
I thought these guys were exceptional until I ran into a 2nd and then a 3rd shop in Ft Collins that did the same work in about the same time frame. Then I found a shop in Boulder that also does them this way, same time frame. The guys in the aftermarket have figured out how to do these in very short order; but even a DIY'er taking his time could easily do one of these within double the pro time.

The horror stories of $2,500 head gasket jobs on these cars stem from the days when the 4-cam 2.5 ltr engines were shucking head gaskets (with internal leaks) and folks were continuing to drive them until they ran the engine low on coolant and overheated the heads, warping them beyond the .002" allowed by Subie. Then the dealerships were installing new heads, which is what drove up the costs ... and especially if the cylinder block was damaged, then the work got rather pricey if not done under warranty.

But the later SOHC 2.5 ltr engine which replaced that one ... and is the engine in the OP's car ... doesn't have that extreme problem. The 2000 year model did still have a minor problem with head gasket seeps, but they were external seeps which were readily identified and the head gaskets easily replaced without cylinder head or block damage as part of the normal failure. I've put a straightedge on over 20 of these heads and not one was warped; all were readily cleanable with careful scraping and a mild 3M rubber finger disc to clean the surface. In short, the Subie head gasket "problem" on this series of car is readily identifiable and easily fixed at modest expense with high quality aftermarket (read: inexpensive) head gasket sets from your local parts source.

The '02 OBW has a better track record of head gasket issues compared to the '00 model, as Subie kept improving the factory head gasket design each year. My '01 is on the original gaskets at 154,000 miles and I'm figuring that someday it may develop the head gasket external seep problem If it does, I'll need an afternoon of easy work to replace the gaskets and a couple hundred bucks in parts to do all the work I'd do with the engine on the bench.

It's really a non-issue compared to the head gasket failures of many other cars in the marketplace today (if you think Toyota, Honda, Volvo, Chrysler, GM and a host of other cars haven't been experiencing head gasket failures, you haven't been watching the owner forums ... or seeing little problems like Ford having spark plug/thread failures in some of their engines, it's so common that the aftermarket has come up with tooling to repair most heads while the engines are still in the vehicles). Where the OP has already had the head gasket issue addressed in their Subie, it's now something that shouldn't be a problem again in the normal service life remaining of their car.

The trans failure at such low mileage was most likely due to mis-matched tire sizes. Could have been as simple as not observing a very low tire pressure in one tire and driving for awhile or having a worn tire for any number of reasons. (for example, I recently caught one tire on my '01 Subie, out of a set of 4 at 35,000 miles use ... was almost worn out, but the other 3 were at least 65% remaining tread life. Don't know why the one tire failed to deliver comparable wear, the tires were rotated so it wasn't an alignment issue. We replaced the one tire with a new one, and it was close enough in diameter to meet Subie specs for the tire set). But a $4K cost figure for the trans there is way out of line. Again, the trannies drop out of the car in a very short time frame, about the same as getting the engine out of the car, and the portions of the trans susceptible to damage typically aren't that expensive ... in fact, there's a whole bunch of DIY'er info about replacing the typical assemblies that fail at the back of the trans without even removing the trans from the car. The typical failure area is not the auto trans gear portion of the trans, but the inter-axle dif for the AWD power delivery. Typically, not a difficult fix and reasonable cost to do so. I've seen more of these cars deliver 200,000+ miles on original transmissions if serviced routinely in accordance with the Subie maintenance schedule than not .... the key is to do the fluid changes on the car that Subie specifies, and with the right fluids.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:03 AM
 
8,317 posts, read 29,471,711 times
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One other note about the Subies. Nearly every one that I know who owns a Subie swears by them and usually keep them for a very long time. One of the reasons that I think some Subies have problems is that people sometimes tend to use them as a substitute for a "true" 4WD vehicle, which can really be hard on them. One guy I know that experienced quite a few transmission problems also regularly took his Outback up trails that had 4WD's in low-range for them to be able to traverse it. Probably not surprising that he had transmission issues.

Were I to look for an AWD vehicle (I still need a "true" 4WD enough that I drive them instead of an AWD when I need all four wheels to be driven), Subaru would be at the top of my list, ahead of all the other AWD's in the market.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Duluth, MN
233 posts, read 417,891 times
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Why don't you sell both of them and get a decent car, like a Camry or something?
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:23 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
13,520 posts, read 22,128,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sminthian View Post
Why don't you sell both of them and get a decent car, like a Camry or something?

He already has Toyota -- Vibe/Matrix.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Washington
479 posts, read 2,223,962 times
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I appreciate everyone's feedback because I'm having a hard time deciding what to do.

So, as far as the transmission on the Outback goes... the transmission was just replaced at 116k with a used transmission that has 50k on it which costed $2800 after tax and labor.
other work that has been done to the Subaru includes...
$2000 for headgasket and oxygen sensor at 96k miles
$1282 for Alternator, Timing belt, water pump and other belts at 96k miles (but the battery and brake light just came on which is an indicator that it might need a new battery or alternator; haven't taken it in yet. Also needs a/c to be fixed which is an unknown cost at this time)
$1040 for Catalytic converter at 117k miles
$850 for axle and wheel bearing work at 85k miles
plus it has new tires
So, the Subaru has already had quite a bit of work done to it. The Vibe has had an a/c recharge and 60k maintenance and it also has new tires.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:59 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
13,520 posts, read 22,128,778 times
Reputation: 20235
These smell like dealership prices.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Washington
479 posts, read 2,223,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaypee View Post
These smell like dealership prices.
Some are, but not all.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:58 AM
 
11,555 posts, read 53,177,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prple View Post
I appreciate everyone's feedback because I'm having a hard time deciding what to do.

So, as far as the transmission on the Outback goes... the transmission was just replaced at 116k with a used transmission that has 50k on it which costed $2800 after tax and labor.
other work that has been done to the Subaru includes...
$2000 for headgasket and oxygen sensor at 96k miles
$1282 for Alternator, Timing belt, water pump and other belts at 96k miles (but the battery and brake light just came on which is an indicator that it might need a new battery or alternator; haven't taken it in yet. Also needs a/c to be fixed which is an unknown cost at this time)
$1040 for Catalytic converter at 117k miles
$850 for axle and wheel bearing work at 85k miles
plus it has new tires
So, the Subaru has already had quite a bit of work done to it. The Vibe has had an a/c recharge and 60k maintenance and it also has new tires.
You've been paying prices for this work which are way out of line ... either at a dealership or a shop that doesn't know what they're doing or is simply taking liberties with your wallet.

I've outlined how simple this work is on these cars ... here's a few more examples ...

Front Drive Axles are commonly available for well under $100. I just replaced both fronts on my wife's 2000 OBW with BRAND NEW assemblies from O'reilly Auto parts. The ticket here on my desk is for $78 for one, the other was $82. It took me ... working on my shop floor (no hoist) ... less than 1.5 hours to replace both, and I also did an engine oil/filter change, manual trans gear lube change at the same time. At that, it's common to find advertised regular prices in my area for FWD axle assemblies, installed, at $124.95 per axle, retail, out the door, installed, warranted 1 year.

Wheel bearings aren't a common failure on 2000 year models, these are typically failed as the result of a ham-fisted tech beating on the axle stub to remove an axle and brinneling the bearing races. IF an axle is stuck in one of the hubs, the proper technique is to use a puller to press the stub axle out smoothly. In short, most of the wheel bearings I've ever seen fail on this series Subie was the result of damage by a shop, not a service life related failure.

I seriously doubt that your car required a new Catalytic converter. The usual scenario is a check engine light and DTC code indicating catalytic converter operating below threshold limits. A shop could replace the converter, but the first thing to verify is that the engine is running properly to begin with. Generally speaking, it's the front and back O2 sensors that have failed and the computer is getting bad information.
In fact, I recently went through this scenario with my own 2001 OBW at 150,000 miles and first replaced the front O2 sensor even though my scanner showed that it looked OK while driving. A week later, the check engine light came on again while driving. I then replaced the back O2 sensor. In 4,000 miles of driving since, the check engine light has not come on again. Problem solved at much less expense than a new uneeded catalytic converter. Both O2 sensors, OE fit, not universals ... both under $100 retail cost and a time to install of less then 20 minutes for the front. The back one was a bit of a nuisance, but still yielded to my persuasions in 40 minutes to install. On a hoist, either one would have been a lot less time, and if it was a customer's car, I would have installed both at the first session.

The alternator is available brand new from various sources retail for about $125-150. Rebuilt at around $100. It's a under 30 minute job to replace.

The timing belt kit retails for about $185, the timing belt for under $50. WP is well under $100. Time to install the kit, belt, and new WP is a couple of hours if you're falling asleep. They're just that simple to do on the SOHC engine ... gotta' drain the cooling system, so removal of the radiator/fan assembly is a snap to do and gives lots of room to access the 2 accessory belts, then the timing belt covers and thence the timing belt/WP. Incidentally, many shops are finding that the WP's in these cars aren't a failure item and are not replacing them at every timing belt change. The risk, of course, is that the work may need to be duplicated if the WP fails. I give my clients the option, and a few will choose to save the cost of the part.


Perhaps the difference in the area of the country where I live is that Subie's are a very common car, and there are numerous independent shops that specialize in them. They are knowledgeable and competitive guys running these places ... and that doesn't include the numerous import specialty shops that do a lot of work on these and other asian marques. Prices are reasonable and realistic. The only folk getting the price points you've mentioned are the dealerships and a few rip-off shops which can be readily avoided by a consumer shopping around. There's no need to pay these price points to keep one of these cars on the road.

May I suggest that part of your decision making about which car to keep should be an investigation into the shops that are in your area as to their pricing and skillsets? In all candor, I think you've been paying a shop to do unecessary work on your car at exhorbitant prices. Time now to find a real mechanic and honest shop to service your cars, no matter which one it is that you decide to keep.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:07 PM
 
5,075 posts, read 11,074,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
Keep the Vibe. It's a Toyota Corolla.
Whatever Pontiac/Toyota did to the Vibe to make it different than the Corolla made it worse. I've driven corollas from the same generation and the Vibe is just not as good of a car. Noise, vibration, twitchy handling, and it's not particularly comfortable.
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