Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
My quote was that branding the entire line of BMW a luxury while Toyota Avalon is not obscures the fact that Avalon is closer to luxury than 128 will ever be. I think we can call specific model "luxury" but applying this label to the entire brand doesn't make any sense. Is Mercedes delivery truck still a luxury vehicle?
...or a Mercedes garbage truck, lol. I agree with what you are saying and what has made it very difficult recently is that the lines have become even further blurred as "options" bleed further down the line. You used to be able to point at various gadgets and trims as being a separating factor, but these things exist in even the most regular of mainstream models now.
However, I won't agree that there isn't something "better" about a 1-series versus say a Mazda3 or Chevy Cruze. Is the 1-series a luxury car? No. However, that is where the word "premium" would apply in the US market.
Quote:
The conspiracy goes deeper here lol. Since there is no Acura outside of the US, and Acura lacked a midsize sedan, Honda Accord became Acura TSX and new "American" Honda Accord was engineered just for the US market. In other words Honda Accords bought in the US and France are completely different vehicles even though they share the same name "Accord".
I see what you saying but you have to admit that Honda and Infinity splitting their line up vehicles, just for the US market shows both that the companies are playing a badge game here and that Anerican consumer is extremely "brand conscious"
Well, the Accord models were split because American buyers don't want the same thing out of a midsize family car that European buyers do. The North American Accord is larger, rides softer, etc. The choice to separate the models was very much driven by what the American market said it wanted. When "sport sedans" took off in popularity it made sense for Honda/Acura to chase that market more aggressively. They simply took the Euro-spec Accord which is smaller, lighter and sportier than the American version and called it the TSX. There isn't another Honda vehicle in the US that rides on the same platform as the TSX. It may be a European Accord, but that makes it unique here.
Is it a badge game? Of course it is, but it doesn't mean that there isn't legitimate product behind it. In some cases, within the US market the "re-badges" are unique models in our market. The American consumer is also very brand conscious and the concept of a luxury brand is very real here.
Quote:
Exactly. It was all a ploy to sell luxury cars in the US, where both Toyota and Honda were associated with inexpensive (at that time) vehicles. Now, why was this necessary in the US but not Europe where Nissan and Honda are successfully selling their cars under just one brand name?
Nissan, Toyota and Honda were not nearly as succesful in Europe as they were in the US. Nissans recent success is driven by their alliance with Renault. Honda barely sells 50,000 cars a year in Europe. The brands just weren't big enough to warrant making the split. The US market was and still is HUGE for the Japanese automakers.
Quote:
Actually in 2014 we just have a shadow of previous rebadging glory where the big three were selling their cars under so many different brands. Anybody remembers Mercury, Mercur, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and many many others? And what makes the American market so different that it allows Honda to sell its flagship sedan- Accord - as a luxury Acura TSX in the US only?
I covered the TSX above. You are right, I just think your feeling is a little stronger then it needs to be on this. The whole "re-badging" thing has gotten much better and regardless of any platform or engine sharing, the individual cars are good enough to be judged on their own merits. Go drive a TSX and then drive the cars it competes with. Drive the "maisntream" versions of those cars as well. Some people see a difference that justifies the price, others don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv101
The Accord & the TSX are two dramatically different automobiles in terms of pricing, performance, handling & fuel requirements, since all Acuras require premium fuel, which has been the case for ages, and that also goes for the new ILX which will be produced at their Civic plant southeast of Indianapolis.
Well over 85% of the Accords sold in the USA every year are of the 4-cylinder variety with automatic transmissions, and use regular gas, as they have for over three decades.
The Accord and TSX are not that dramatically different in the nuts and bolts department. They of course are quite different in overall execution, styling, etc. As for the premium requirement, that is because Acura is using tuned versions of regular Honda engines for the most part. They basically take a regular Honda engine, turn up the timing which means you need premium to avoid knock and they gain a few horsepower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risotto11
Do you realize that outside of the US and Canada there is NO such a thing as Acura and cars sold in the us as Acura are sold as Honda. All Acuras magically become Hondas and TSX an accord.
Pure magic, isn't it?
Well, just like Lexus is now a global brand, Honda and Nissan are looking to take Acura and Infiniti global as well. Acura is currently sold in China and there are plans to introduce it in Europe and South America within the next year. The new NSX will also be sold globally as an Acura.
So, as you can see, while Lexus, Infiniti and Acura all started as "spin-off" projects in North America and a good deal of their product is still basically "re-badges" to some degree, they are all now global brands.
That's essentially what Acura sales reps have told me at the last several LA Auto Shows; tweaking the engine as you described for purposes of performance obviously serves as a huge difference between a 'sedan-for-the-masses' such as the Accord, Camry or Sonata, as opposed to an entry level sports car such as the TSX or even a Mazda6, which has been receiving nonstop rave reviews from folks such as Dan Neil of the WSJ.
My assertion that Buick couldn't or wouldn't be able to compete with the Germans as it relates to building a serious 4-door sports sedan stems from the underpinnings/chassis structure differences between the two cars; while I do think that GM could take on the Germans as they have with the new Cadillac which just won the COTY award from Motor Trend, it appears to me that they're using the Caddy as opposed to the Buick to go head-to-head with them.
That ubiquitous Verano commercial with 6-foot 5 Peyton Manning might serve as GMs attempt to market the Verano as a family sedan as opposed to a sports sedan; I believe that their Regal GS serves as their so-called 'import-fighter' for sports cars, and the BMW 3-series in particular.
As the NY Daily News put it in reviewing the Verano this past July, it can match the 0-60 time (6.2 seconds) of the Regal GS (with an optional engine), but 'this time around, the stench that was the Cimarron is nowhere in evidence.'
Methinks the NYDN nailed it with that bolded part.
...or a Mercedes garbage truck, lol. I agree with what you are saying and what has made it very difficult recently is that the lines have become even further blurred as "options" bleed further down the line. You used to be able to point at various gadgets and trims as being a separating factor, but these things exist in even the most regular of mainstream models now.
Excellent point. The features that used to be considered a luxury can be found in economy cars...
The line has blurred so much even the use of luxury to describe entire lines of vehicles is not accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
.
However, I won't agree that there isn't something "better" about a 1-series versus say a Mazda3 or Chevy Cruze. Is the 1-series a luxury car? No. However, that is where the word "premium" would apply in the US market.
Is there? Is 1-series any more "luxury vehicle" than Honda 2000 or Toyota Solara.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
.
Well, the Accord models were split because American buyers don't want the same thing out of a midsize family car that European buyers do. The North American Accord is larger, rides softer, etc. The choice to separate the models was very much driven by what the American market said it wanted. When "sport sedans" took off in popularity it made sense for Honda/Acura to chase that market more aggressively. They simply took the Euro-spec Accord which is smaller, lighter and sportier than the American version and called it the TSX. There isn't another Honda vehicle in the US that rides on the same platform as the TSX. It may be a European Accord, but that makes it unique here.
Is it a badge game? Of course it is, but it doesn't mean that there isn't legitimate product behind it. In some cases, within the US market the "re-badges" are unique models in our market. The American consumer is also very brand conscious and the concept of a luxury brand is very real here.
Exactly my point. American buyers are obsessed with image that comes with owning a luxury brand and it is just the badge that is a differentiator here as the TSX is considered a luxury while Honda Accord in Europe, which is exactly the same car, is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
.
Nissan, Toyota and Honda were not nearly as succesful in Europe as they were in the US. Nissans recent success is driven by their alliance with Renault. Honda barely sells 50,000 cars a year in Europe. The brands just weren't big enough to warrant making the split. The US market was and still is HUGE for the Japanese automakers.
I covered the TSX above. You are right, I just think your feeling is a little stronger then it needs to be on this. The whole "re-badging" thing has gotten much better and regardless of any platform or engine sharing, the individual cars are good enough to be judged on their own merits. Go drive a TSX and then drive the cars it competes with. Drive the "maisntream" versions of those cars as well. Some people see a difference that justifies the price, others don't.
The Accord and TSX are not that dramatically different in the nuts and bolts department. They of course are quite different in overall execution, styling, etc. As for the premium requirement, that is because Acura is using tuned versions of regular Honda engines for the most part. They basically take a regular Honda engine, turn up the timing which means you need premium to avoid knock and they gain a few horsepower.
I think it's the other way around: they take the excellent Honda engine and detune it to fit the family sedan image of the American Accord.
Well, just like Lexus is now a global brand, Honda and Nissan are looking to take Acura and Infiniti global as well. Acura is currently sold in China and there are plans to introduce it in Europe and South America within the next year. The new NSX will also be sold globally as an Acura.
So, as you can see, while Lexus, Infiniti and Acura all started as "spin-off" projects in North America and a good deal of their product is still basically "re-badges" to some degree, they are all now global brands.
That's essentially what Acura sales reps have told me at the last several LA Auto Shows; tweaking the engine as you described for purposes of performance obviously serves as a huge difference between a 'sedan-for-the-masses' such as the Accord, Camry or Sonata, as opposed to an entry level sports car such as the TSX or even a Mazda6, which has been receiving nonstop rave reviews from folks such as Dan Neil of the WSJ.
You're getting product knowledge from sales reps? Lol
Most manufacturers detunes their engines as there is a trade off between performance and reliability.
The detunes suspensions as there is trade off between comfort and handling plus American roads are much more harsh than European or Japanese, but those are all conscious decisions and often require just as much as software update in case of engines or softer springs in case of suspensions.
The stories that PR people will come up with and the sales people repeat
That's essentially what Acura sales reps have told me at the last several LA Auto Shows; tweaking the engine as you described for purposes of performance obviously serves as a huge difference between a 'sedan-for-the-masses' such as the Accord, Camry or Sonata, as opposed to an entry level sports car such as the TSX or even a Mazda6, which has been receiving nonstop rave reviews from folks such as Dan Neil of the WSJ.
My assertion that Buick couldn't or wouldn't be able to compete with the Germans as it relates to building a serious 4-door sports sedan stems from the underpinnings/chassis structure differences between the two cars; while I do think that GM could take on the Germans as they have with the new Cadillac which just won the COTY award from Motor Trend, it appears to me that they're using the Caddy as opposed to the Buick to go head-to-head with them.
That ubiquitous Verano commercial with 6-foot 5 Peyton Manning might serve as GMs attempt to market the Verano as a family sedan as opposed to a sports sedan; I believe that their Regal GS serves as their so-called 'import-fighter' for sports cars, and the BMW 3-series in particular.
As the NY Daily News put it in reviewing the Verano this past July, it can match the 0-60 time (6.2 seconds) of the Regal GS (with an optional engine), but 'this time around, the stench that was the Cimarron is nowhere in evidence.'
Methinks the NYDN nailed it with that bolded part.
1. The word "sport sedan" is pretty much a marketing label that gets slapped on everything these days. "True" sport sedans are vehicles like the Cadillac ATS or BMW 3-series. The closest Acura comes to a "sport sedan" is the current TL with the SH-AWD, but even that is softer then what I would consider a "true" sports sedan". So, Acura can call the TSX whatever they want, but it's not a "sport sedan".
2. When I was talking of bumping the timing, the general impact of this is a few horsepower at best. In the example of the Honda versus Acura engine the I4 in the Acura gains about 12 horsepower and the V6 gains about 4 horsepower. It's barely noticable and arguably not worth the premium requirement. If you drag race an Accord V6 and a TSX V6 they return virtually identical times in 0-60 and quarter mile performance.
3. Yes, Cadillac is the brand that is going after the Germans and some of the Japanese cars by filling the role of a true sports sedan. Buick is chasing after the lower end of the "luxury" market where the cars are mainly FWD models spun-off of a mainstream vehicle. In that a Verano (Cruze) and Regal (Malibu) are every bit as competitive with an ILX (Civic) and TSX (Accord); and the LaCrosse (Impala) is every bit as competitive with a car like the ES350 (Avalon). None of them are "sport sedans"...at least in my book.
4. They have never marketed or positioned the Verano as a "sport sedan". They are quite clearly marketing and positioning it as a compact "premium" car ideal for commuting and getting around on the weekends. The Regal GS is marketed as a "sport sedan" (again, not a lable I agree with, 'sporty sedan' is more apt) and is intended to draw interest to the Buick brand and its past performance heritage. People who would shop the GS are most likely Acura TL buyers, Volvo S60 R-design buyers or even perhaps people looking at a lower end Audi A4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risotto11
Is there? Is 1-series any more "luxury vehicle" than Honda 2000 or Toyota Solara.
I wouldn't call it more "luxurious" but I would consider it more "premium". A 1-series has better materials and overall build quality than either of those.
A true sports sedan with a RWD would be a BMW 330, Infiniti G35. Almost all of these new pretentious FWD sedans are just sporty looking with stiffer suspensions and better tires.
A true sports sedan with a RWD would be a BMW 330, Infiniti G35. Almost all of these new pretentious FWD sedans are just sporty looking with stiffer suspensions and better tires.
And I would only call true sports sedans cars like M3, Evo or WrX/STI. Anyways that's just a marketing ploy.
People are obsessed with badging and labels while all you have to do is carefully compare numbers and features ignoring said badges and labels.
I guess I am living in the past. I still think about my grandfather driving his 78 Le Sabre when I think about Buick. Don't think I will ever own one. However, now I am driving my deceased mother's 05 deVille. LOL
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
