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Not quite the same as GM engineers finding the problem in 2004 and then leaving it essentially uncorrected for ten years even though people were being killed. I don't care much for Toyota either but their issues were generally caused by poor drivers in conjuction with a media witch hunt.
Yeah, 6.5 million recalls due to bad drivers from 2004 to 2010. I'm sure you're correct.
GM bond holders were made up of unions and investors. The unions got a higher % of their bond value back then investors did. Treating unions more favorably than investors is a bailout for unions. Union member jobs were saved more than investors who own the company. The union bailout was by BO not Bush, BO structured the bailout deal to favor union investment over regular investors.
My comments are responsive to OP's claim about GM being number 1. Those who claim GM quality is good now, should thank the Asia car markers who forced them to follow their lead on quality or be even more irrelavant and go bankrupt where even the US gov might not afford bailing them out.
Wrong again John.
On December 19, George W. Bush announced that he had approved the bailout plan, which would give loans of $17.4 billion to U.S. automakers GM and Chrysler, stating that under present economic conditions, "allowing the U.S. auto industry to collapse is not a responsible course of action."Bush provided $13.4 billion now, with another $4 billion available in February 2009. Funds would be made available from the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008. General Motors would get $9.4 billion, and Chrysler $4 billion.
You're also confusing the federal court bankruptcy negotiations with the bailout. In Federal court the Delpi non-union management got their pensions severely reduced.
That's bogus.
GM woke up one morning and all their debts were gone. Vanished! All those debts were wiped out!
Not only that, but their cash register was completely full!
So now they had a completely developed production facility; no debt; the U.S. government as a customer; and plenty of working capital. Ain't life grand??!!
That's bogus.
GM woke up one morning and all their debts were gone. Vanished! All those debts were wiped out!
Not only that, but their cash register was completely full!
So now they had a completely developed production facility; no debt; the U.S. government as a customer; and plenty of working capital. Ain't life grand??!!
And it only cost the taxpayer several billion, so the GM executives could absolve their debt, and continue their lavish lifestyles. What surprised me was Paul Ryan voted for it.
You have a distorted view of GM and Chrysler's problems. If the problem was the banking industry every carmaker would have suffered.
They all did suffer. Ford rolled the dice early, mortgaged everything they had, and got credit early (and still took DOE handouts). other manufacturers started looking for partnerships. Foreign brands were propped up by THEIR governments.
I'm not saying GM or Chrysler haven't managed to turn things around, post-bailout. IMO, GM definitely has and Chrysler? Well, the buyout by Fiat will probably result in some improvements in some areas, and failure in others -- but it could survive as a car maker that's "competitive".
The point is, if we just let them fail as they deserved to do, the nonsense about "America wouldn't have any auto makers anymore!" is already disproved by up-and-comers like Tesla Motors.
In the short term, people who already bought GM or Chrysler vehicles would whine and complain since their precious warranty coverage would be called into question. And obviously the people who lost jobs there would whine and complain for a while (until they got a similar job with one of the companies that would appear to fill in the void). But the "Big 3" amount to entrenched and outdated thinking about automobile production anyway. (Even Ford, who bragged regularly about not accepting any bailouts, was right behind the others, working back room deals to ensure they got one too if things didn't pan out for them a few months down the road.)
IMO, we'd be stronger as a nation if we left them to fend for themselves and gave new, innovative auto-makers a better chance at taking over the top spots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano
GM should never have been rescued. Same with Chrysler - both times. The US told the auto industry: "It is ok to suck and make poor quality vehicles for decades. No need to worry about over spending on labor and employing bad management. We'll save you if you need it."
But this doesn't mean GM is the BEST. They already burned their bridge with me by building unreliable garbage, but that's just my experience and I'm only one in 7+ billion so what's it matter.
They burned their bridge with me when they stupidly and shortsightedly dismantled and destroyed their best division - Saturn.
If they had left Saturn alone and let it stay independent and autonomous, like it was in the good old "Saturn Homecoming" days, many of us would have been Saturn owners for life.
Instead, they messed with success and allowed the jealousy and pettiness of the older divisions (namely, GM and Chevrolet) to control the argument and dictate the decision-making and they drove us (at least tens of thousands of us) into the arms of other automakers.
Personally, I have said goodbye to GM and hello to Subaru.
Yeah, 'cause your one experience trumps millions of other postive experiences.
If one unreliable example was all it took, there would be no manufacturers left to like, as they ALL have had their share of turds. I've had bad Hondas and Toyotas. And completely reliable Fords and GMs (including my current Volt).
Gotta love people that can admit that they are closed minded. Makes it so much easier to know who to completely ignore.
I never said my experience "trumps" anyone elses. Just that since I had 3 bad apples I learned from it and wont buy another. It's common sense, you don't keep buying the same brand if it's been unreliable.
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Yeah, this is the truth ....
