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I wonder how efficient hydrogen really is when you consider its production. I don't know the exact numbers, but just thinking about using electricity to produce hydrogen only to end up producing electricity again in fuel cell cars seem to be a little wasteful overall.
It's not efficient. It takes more electricity to generate hydrogen than you get out of it from the fuel cell, and less than if you used that electricity in a battery to run an EV.
I wonder how efficient hydrogen really is when you consider its production. I don't know the exact numbers, but just thinking about using electricity to produce hydrogen only to end up producing electricity again in fuel cell cars seem to be a little wasteful overall.
That depends entirely on the method of production. Using solar power or wind power to generate hydrogen for the purpose of energy storage is being investigated for large scale use.
On the other hand, most of the hydrogen to be utilized initially in fuel cells is produced in petroleum refineries, where a great deal of it is used in the refining process. So this is a major concern for me.
The HFCEVs will be classed as Zero Emissions vehicles, because the only thing they emit is a small amount of water vapor, which is not considered a pollutant. But until the hydrogen is sourced by renewables, it doesn't really gain on the issue of reducing petroleum consumption.
Actually I traded in a car I was paying $300 a month for, plus the gas. I'm now paying $300 a month plus NO gas, saving me money right off the bat vs the car I already had.
The street price of the car was about $27k, which is about what a similarly equipped (as far as features) and useful mid sizer goes for.
If you're going to be buying a new car anyway, then look at electrics or Plug ins, as the cost vector is NOT that great and the savings can be had right from the start.
Good post. People do not do the maths. Hybrids and EVs are get more and more in London, even the buses.
Hybrids and EVs are exempt from London congestion/pollution charges which is ÂŁ11.50 per day. If you derive into the centre you this charge. So, if you go in 5 times a week for 48 weeks of the year that is:
11.50 x (48 x 5) = ÂŁ2,760 per ann.
Parking is also free. Which could be ÂŁ30 per day. So, 30 x (48 x5) = ÂŁ7,200 per ann.
The national vehicle tax is free. I current pay ÂŁ225 per ann.
A total of ÂŁ8,185 is saved per ann. That is $13,260 (USA). Then there is the savings on the higher mpg which a Prius gives 65mpg UK. Others are better. A EV charge is buttons to buying gasoline.
Boy does an EV or hybrid make economic sense. They pay for themselves in a matter of a few years. And they eliminate or vastly reduce the poison that ruins lungs.
The difference in price between a new TDi and my cheap used big block Suburban would let me buy a lot of gas for the Suburban, too, does that make the Suburban a better commuter choice than a new economy car? Same logic.
Non Sequitur. I also used the word "comparable". The TDI & Suburban are not similar vehicles.
I was using the criteria the party gave for justifying the electric car in the first place. i.e. It costs $10/month. Pollution, environment, etc were not among them. They are only now being brought up because because the original premise was found to be invalid once all cost factors were considered.
The point being, if the only criteria is cost, then the payback of an all electric is very dubious. Especially when one considers ALL the costs which include time wasted charging the thing when you have to drive beyond the very short range, or spend the night somewhere, where charging isn't available.
Last edited by WaldoKitty; 09-12-2014 at 04:57 AM..
Boy does an EV or hybrid make economic sense. They pay for themselves in a matter of a few years. And they eliminate or vastly reduce the poison that ruins lungs.
I guess that's why sales are flat even with huge government (tax payer) subsidies.
I guess that's why sales are flat even with huge government (tax payer) subsidies.
Again, what about the government subsidies for oil production and sales, and the government spending on sending military troops into the ME to protect oil fields? You adding that taxpayer cost into your gasoline calculations? How about the costs of our servicemen's lives fighting those battles? Oh, no, all you see is cheap gasoline that hasn't even had the tax on it raised in decades in most places.
I guess that's why sales are flat even with huge government (tax payer) subsidies.
EVs and hybrids are everywhere where I live. Makers have to be forced to make them by introducing congestion/pollution charges in all cities, and tightening up emissions regulations. Thus penalizing the polluters.
In the 1970s when the USA introduced emission control, the US makers said they could not reach it and spent million of lawyers to stop the government. Bosch, a German company, looked at it and easy met the emissions levels. Corporation will only advance when forced to.
Subsidies? NO!!!! Penalising the polluters. If you dirty our commonly owned air - YOU pay.
Non Sequitur. I also used the word "comparable". The TDI & Suburban are not similar vehicles.
You say the only criteria is cost and payback, thus the comparison is valid.
Quote:
Especially when one considers ALL the costs which include time wasted charging the thing when you have to drive beyond the very short range, or spend the night somewhere, where charging isn't available.
What's this fascination with cross country trips? MOST people live and work and run errands well within the range of EVs now. And if you are one of the few that don't, you could get a plug-in and live on EV rage most of the time and take the occasional long trip on gas, or buy the EV and on the rare occasions you go long distances, rent or fly. Either way, you could start saving money right off the bat vs the car you already have if you are making payments now, or vs any other COMPARABLE new car you might choose if you are buying new anyhow.
The thing is, with an EV or plug-in, you plug in when you get home and you have a "Full tank" every morning when you get in it. Doing this is not onerous or difficult. And many people now can charge at work, which is huge.
A frind of mine sold his newish Subaru and leased a Leaf for $199 a month. He's saving so much on gas that he bought a classic BMW 2800CS to drive on weekends and he's still paying less than he was when he owned the Subaru.
Especially when one considers ALL the costs which include time wasted charging the thing when you have to drive beyond the very short range, or spend the night somewhere, where charging isn't available.
You really haven't much of a clue here. If you do long trips frequently then get5 a Volt and its gasoline engine will take you anywhere. ...and what a ride!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63
A frind of mine sold his newish Subaru and leased a Leaf for $199 a month. He's saving so much on gas that he bought a classic BMW 2800CS to drive on weekends and he's still paying less than he was when he owned the Subaru.
Some people just can't do the simple maths.
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