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And the lack of American cars contributes what to your ability to honestly judge the quality of American cars?
You don't think there is a correlation between number of sales and product quality? Or just a coincidence Toyota, Volkswagen, BMW, etc are all making huge profits when nearly all American manufacturers nearly went bankrupt without government assistance?
Quote:
I've already noted your cherry picking of the F-35 as a lame attempt at indicting the entire US aircraft industry as well as your failure to address the high quality of any number of other American aircraft.
The F35 is supposed to be the main fighter jet, just like the F16. Not some niche aircraft. So, that is pretty bad after all. And look at the 747, a design from the 60's that Boeing is still trying to peddle when Airbus has developed the completely new A380. And what happened to your space program?
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68,329 posts, read 54,368,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drro
You don't think there is a correlation between number of sales and product quality? Or just a coincidence Toyota, Volkswagen, BMW, etc are all making huge profits when nearly all American manufacturers nearly went bankrupt without government assistance?
Since you seem so enamored with BMW quality perhaps you'd care to explain why they released a car for sale (early 2000s 7 series), virtually every one of which would require at least one multi hour reprogramming to work properly? Or why so many of their motorcycles suffer final drive failures? The MINI, another BMW product, wasn't exactly a trouble free high quality item at launch either. I could list dozens of other issues you're apparently bent on turning a blind eye to so why bother?.
And no, I don't necessarily equate sales with quality. Renault sold 100,000 cars in the US in 1959, an unheard of number at the time. They were soon stacked up in salvage yards around the country, most missing their cylinder heads, what POSs they were. And after all, Justin Bieber has sold a lot of records, doesn't make him a quality singer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drro
The F35 is supposed to be the main fighter jet, just like the F16. Not some niche aircraft. So, that is pretty bad after all. And look at the 747, a design from the 60's that Boeing is still trying to peddle when Airbus has developed the completely new A380. And what happened to your space program?
You've alleged our products are 'outdated and horrible quality'. That is just flat out wrong, perhaps a 747 is long in the tooth but it certainly wasn't outdated or horrible quality when introduced, nor were the F-16, FA-18, and to delve into history, the DC-3. I'll take Donald Douglas's record over Anthony Fokker's any day. And I would think someone living in a formerly NAZI occupied land should be well aware that B-17s were most assuredly not outdated horrible quality aircraft in their time.
BTW, WHAT happened to your space program?
Ours ran the course it was intended to run.
We don't, there are only a few of them. European cars are by far the most popular, then there are some Asian cars. I don't see why you have to go on about this, the Dutch not producing much at all has nothing to do with the poor quality of your cars. We are not a manufacturing country, the US is(well, supposedly). Your whole car industry except Ford went nearly bankrupt a few years ago if it hadn't been for a bailout from your government. At the same time Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes and the like are making billions of profits. Those are the facts, keeping arguing on about this will not change anything.
"Only a few of them..."
Every one of your posts is pure conjecture. Why are you unable to back up your talking points? Clearly, your impressions are highly inaccurate as evidenced by facts I was able to retrieve within a matter of minutes:
EU Total Car sales for 2013: ~8.066M (Source 1), 12.3M (Source 4)
GM EU Sales for 2013: ~1.557M -> 20% Market Share (S1) or 13% Market Share (S4)
Ford EU Sales for 2013: ~1.1M -> 13.6% Market Share (S1) or 9% Market Share (S4)
Fiat-Chrysler Sales, 2013: ~0.741M 6% Market Share (Assume 3% Chrysler Brand)
In summary:
Based on source 1 EU sales total of ~8.1 units, domestic marques comprised 36.6% of all passenger vehicles sold. Based on source 4 EU sales total of ~12.3M units, domestic marques comprised 25% of all vehicles sold in EU.
Due to the large discrepancy between EU vehicles sold I believe a compromise is fitting, splitting the difference. We can therefore say that ~31% of all vehicles sold in EU were of “domestic” or American marque. Nearly 1 of every 3 vehicles had an American nameplate! How incredible for such inferior equipment in a foreign land.
These facts are completely contrary to your conjecture. Your fellow countrymen and neighboring countries obviously do not share in your unfounded opinion.
Please respond with facts to support your argument otherwise get used to the ridicule.
Every one of your posts is pure conjecture. Why are you unable to back up your talking points? Clearly, your impressions are highly inaccurate as evidenced by facts I was able to retrieve within a matter of minutes:
EU Total Car sales for 2013: ~8.066M (Source 1), 12.3M (Source 4)
GM EU Sales for 2013: ~1.557M -> 20% Market Share (S1) or 13% Market Share (S4)
Ford EU Sales for 2013: ~1.1M -> 13.6% Market Share (S1) or 9% Market Share (S4)
Fiat-Chrysler Sales, 2013: ~0.741M 6% Market Share (Assume 3% Chrysler Brand)
You don't understand the European market. GM bought Opel. Opel sells its cars developed and build in Europe like before GM bought it, but according to your logic those are suddenly American cars? No, they are still European developed and build cars. Look at opel.de, with the exception of the Volt, there is no American designed or build car there. The same with Ford and Fiat. This is classical American ignorance.
Btw, Fiat bought Chrysler when it went bankrupt, not the other way around. It is pretty rude and arrogant to think when a European company buys a bankrupt American company it suddenly produces American cars.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,368,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drro
Btw, Fiat bought Chrysler when it went bankrupt, not the other way around. It is pretty rude and arrogant to think when a European company buys a bankrupt American company it suddenly produces American cars.
Kinda like when one criticizes the American aircraft and automobile industries unsupported by facts, eh?
You don't understand the European market. GM bought Opel. Opel sells its cars developed and build in Europe like before GM bought it, but according to your logic those are suddenly American cars? No, they are still European developed and build cars. Look at opel.de, with the exception of the Volt, there is no American designed or build car there. The same with Ford and Fiat. This is classical American ignorance.
Btw, Fiat bought Chrysler when it went bankrupt, not the other way around. It is pretty rude and arrogant to think when a European company buys a bankrupt American company it suddenly produces American cars.
Provide facts, data, NUMBERS. Why does this notion elude you??? Market performance is determined by the numbers. The fact of the matter is, Europeans are buying the American nameplates because they perceive them to be quality.
1:Your society must be devolving, or..
2:American marques (even with the exclusion of fiat-chrysler) build quality, technologically equivalent autos.
Provide facts, data, NUMBERS. Why does this notion elude you??? Market performance is determined by the numbers. The fact of the matter is, Europeans are buying the American nameplates because they perceive them to be quality.
The perception of anything American build is poor quality over here and you can't even buy American cars here even if you wanted to except for some rare models like the Volt and some gray imports. Sorry if that doesn't match your perception of reality.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,368,826 times
Reputation: 40731
Quote:
Originally Posted by drro
The perception of anything American build is poor quality over here and you can't even buy American cars here even if you wanted to except for some rare models like the Volt and some gray imports. Sorry if that doesn't match your perception of reality.
Have you ever even sat in an American car?
And I'm still waiting to hear your explanation of just why the BMWs you tout as such exemplars of quality have many of their own quality issues?
Your perception of quality seems to have been formed in a coffee bar.
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