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When you have the computer read in your car, you're just given the results. You're not asking them to diagnose anything. They're telling you "P0420" is the code in the computer.
Now, if you ARE asking them to interpret and diagnose.. Perhaps they tell you what it COULD be.. But P0420, while, if I am remembering my codes right, is a cat system below efficiency.. It doesn't mean that a cat is bad. And any mechanic who diagnoses based solely on codes doesn't know what they're doing. The codes are a starting point, not an end point. Anyone who 'repairs' a vehicle solely based on codes in a computer is shotgunning it, and they are not a mechanic. And they wind up being wrong more than they're right.
P0420 means exactly what it says.. Which is "Catalyst system below efficiency".. Not "Bad Cat". A mechanic might get that code and start the car up and hear a rattling that is very loud at idle that gets less under throttle.. Which could indicate that the catalyst has come loose inside the casing.. that's reading a computer and using knowledge.. Or, they might get a P0420 and know that on a 02 Canyonero it has a tendency to leak in the exhaust at a joint before the catalytic converter and that is the likely problem. that's reading a computer and using experience.
You wouldn't pay a doctor to walk up to a computer screen, read your blood pressure and that's it.
Your clients won't pay you to read a contract. They're paying you to read the contract and interpret it, or provide advice on it. If they're paying you to read it only.. let me know who they are.. I can read.
You're paying a mechanic a diagnosis fee to take the time to plug the car in and run the computer check (and pay for the computer too, by the way) and to review the code. You're paying for their time, same thing you pay a doctor for in a routine checkup. If the code reader (or the MRI) reveals additional problems or something out of whack, you're paying for their knowledge regarding what that may be, and additional charges to repair the issue. It's the same principle, different scale.
And you'd be surprised how often some people are paying for me to tell them what is written in the contract in plain English.
What if no computer is involved? What if your water pump is leaking and he can tell by looking at it(but you couldn’t). Should he charge you for “diagnosis” too?
On my Explorer I have P0171 and P0174. They report lean mixtures on Banks 1 and 2. Causes you ask?
PCM software needs to be updated
Vacuum leaks (Intake Manifold Gaskets, vacuum hoses, PCV hoses, etc.)
Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF)
Plugged Fuel Filter or weak Fuel Pump
Plugged or dirty Fuel Injectors
So these home code readers are really for entertainment purposes. You need a much better diagnostic tool.
Knowledge, even if you don't exactly know what to do with it, isn't entertainment.. You have at least an idea of what the problem is.. As I mentioned before, just that puts you a little more level when going into a repair shop. Plus.. Just FYI.. You search those two codes and "Ford Explorer".. First result that comes up is the PCV hose tends to crack.. So, while you might not want to, or be able to do the work yourself.. You at least go in with a fair idea of what the problem is. That puts a little more power on your side. Considering that OBDII has been the same for 20 years.. A $20 scanner investment is pretty good for what you get.. Even if you don't do your own repairs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeagleEagleDFW
You're paying a mechanic a diagnosis fee to take the time to plug the car in and run the computer check (and pay for the computer too, by the way) and to review the code.
If you're asking him for interpretation.. Then I agree with you, there should be a charge. And, as I said before.. If you get them to read the code and then go do the work yourself.. I have no problem with a moderate charge for that. $100 is far excessive.. And.. If you have them do the work to do the repair, then the charge for hooking it up to the computer should be included in the labor to do the repair. Not a separate line item.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyRider
What if no computer is involved? What if your water pump is leaking and he can tell by looking at it(but you couldn’t). Should he charge you for “diagnosis” too?
Actually.. On this particular example.. I'd agree with a diagnosis charge on it, because on most any car, to see that the water pump is leaking, they'd have to put it up on a rack. Not only that, but if the shop was doing the repair, they would replace the water pump and pressure test the cooling system to rule out secondary leaks.. So.. Bad example.
Let's say diagnosis for squealing coming from under the hood, they open the hood while you start the car and say "Your air pump has seized".. That would be something that I can't see there being a charge on. Not that i've seen a car with an air pump in the past 20 years, but..
Unless the car is under warranty and requires dealer service, avoid the dealer like the plague. How do you think they pay for those nice show rooms? Certainly not by selling cars!
My husband is an ASE mechanic with 40 years of experience. I have heard so many stories of repairs going bad in a heartbeat. He tells people to either go to a dealership with a good repair reputation, ask around...or find a shop that comes highly referred, ask around. The only problem with either in our area is that if your favorite mechanic who knows your car like his own leaves the shop. Then you start all over again.
On the note of diagnosis, most of the dealerships in our area have a minimum charge for diagnosis, by the hourly rate.
And just because you know what the code is doesn't mean you know what to replace. Case in point, our daughter is away at college. She has had an knock sensor code for 6 months now and we'll fix the sensor for her when she drives home for Christmas, no harm driving it and she knows what engine knock sounds like. The car does not knock, the sensor has gone bad. She also had an airbag code come up recently. Because her CRV was on the recall list and she goes to school in a hot, humid climate we told her to go directly to the dealershi and not drive until then. The dealership did the free repair of the airbag recall as well as another airbag sensor for free that had been on a recall. And....still has an airbag code on the dash. The dealership told her the only thing left is the bumper sensors, I think they told her $100 each x2. OK, that can wait til she gets home for dad to look at. As long as the airbag housing isn't going to explode in her face, I'm comfortable with her driving the car. And lastly, her car recently threw a transmission fluid code. Told her to go right to the shop with that one. The dealership confirmed that there is nothing wrong with her transmission or fluid. And when she went to her independent guy for her oil change he also checked out her tranny and fluid...still nothing.
We are starting to doubt the reliability of this 2nd gen CRV. She's had quite a few sensor codes in the two years we've owned it. She is a good little mechanic herself, knowing to check oil and tires at every gas fill or at least once per month. She calls her dad with any unusual activity or sounds quickly. But she drove an old Dodge Shadow with 200k for years without a problem (changed a fuel filter and otherwise just regular maintenance) before we spent some $$$ to by her this used 2002 CRV with 80k miles. It appears to have been well cared for in the past and we are hoping it is just going through a rough patch. But if it doesn't clear up after the sensor maintenance at Christmas I think she will be tempted to replace it when she graduates.
But back to the OP, knowing the code and knowing what to replace are way far apart in some cases.
Guarantee you that Subaru dealer is using a genuine subaru part as well.. And the part you're looking up online likely isn't.
that's not to say that the OEM part is any better than an aftermarket.. Though, I think with a part like that, I probably would use OEM.
The charge to read the code is horsecrap, IMO.. Seriously, you plug in, 10 seconds later, here's your code list. Charging anything for doing that is crap... Unless you charge for it, and waive that charge so long as you do the work to repair it.
I can understand that, at least.
I would bet Subaru didn't make the O2 sensor. It is probably an NGK or Denso part. Aftermarket they are cheap.
I would bet Subaru didn't make the O2 sensor. It is probably an NGK or Denso part. Aftermarket they are cheap.
I have brought the wrong O2 sensor to my mechanic and wasted a whole day. Upstream, downstream, left bank, right bank. You better know what you are buying.
You search those two codes and "Ford Explorer".. First result that comes up is the PCV hose tends to crack..
Mine has been diagnosed as intake manifolds gaskets. There are two. One shop changed the upper to no effect. Took it back and he finally said he can’t find anything, and it is not the lower. Took it somewhere else and he says it is the lower and wants $1200 to fix it! Not gonna happen.
The local Subaru dealer wants $450 to change one O2 sensor. Here is the break down. $100 just to read the code, $250 for the sensor itself and $100 for labor. This is my son’s car and he needed it done so I gave them the go ahead. It’s been a while since I have been to a dealer. Their charges are off the charts. The sensor is just $50 online. That diagnostic charge is the biggest a rip off. I can do it at home in 2 minutes.
The fact that you can get a sensor online for $50 does not set a standard for a fair retail price for a genuine Subaru part.
$100 to read the code is out of line IMHO opinion as an independent repair shop owner.
If I knew the exact year and model of the Subaru and which sensor has set the code, I could give you more detailed information as to what would be a reasonable charge.
The fact that you can get a sensor online for $50 does not set a standard for a fair retail price for a genuine Subaru part.
$100 to read the code is out of line IMHO opinion as an independent repair shop owner.
If I knew the exact year and model of the Subaru and which sensor has set the code, I could give you more detailed information as to what would be a reasonable charge.
Don in Austin
Was waiting for you to chime in on this.. I believe OP has stated it's an 09 Subaru Lugacy, and it is the downstream O2 sensor..
However, one of the interesting parts of this is that the dealer had to replace the cat because they broke it removing the sensor.. My guess, and you're probably the best person around here to confirm it.. Is that the downstream sensor is probably on the pipe that comes out of the cat, and that pipe is part of the 'assembly' for the cat? Where they break that pipe, you can't just weld a new pipe to the good cat. The dealer apparently replaced the cat at no cost, which.. Kinda blew my mind. Are you of the same opinion that I am that about anytime you work on exhaust.. The exception is when you DON'T have a bolt seized, or break off a stud or similar? You almost plan for that to happen and it's a good day when it doesn't? And an O2 sensor (especially downstream) is one of those things that you almost expect to be a pain to get out?
I'd be curious here as to your stand on what the main part of the argument is here.. And that's a 'diagnostic' fee.. As you saw, they charged $100 to read the code. I'm saying that if the shop is doing the repair, hooking up and reading the computer.. Any fee that would be incurred from that should be waived if the shop does the repair. If someone brings it in, says "Can you read my computer".. A reasonable charge would not be out of line.. $20-25 maybe? What do you do in those situations?
Now, 'diagnostic' charges, if they are more than just hooking up the computer.. I can see.. I mean, if you've got one of the 100k machines and you have to start the vehicle up, monitor it, checking between the RPMs and correlating all the data to make a diagnosis.. I can see charging for that. If it takes you an hour hooked up to the computer to diagnose, you indeed, deserve to be compensated for that. Charging $40 for plugging the scanner in, seeing a P0128(Think I have the right code there for the stuck open thermostat), then the labor for replacing the thermostat and cost of the thermostat is.. Not right in my book. I can live with it if you actually pulled the thermostat and stuck it in a pot of boiling water to really test it or something.. Though, stuck open that isn't really a test.
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