Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I can see both sides of it.. I think, if I was running a shop.. I'd be happy to let the customer provide the parts. Then, all that overhead of dealing with the warranty is off my hands.
They buy a $15 pair of brake pads and they wear out after a month.. I'm happy to put another set on there and charge for the labor.. And they can spend their time going back to the manufacturer, who only provides a warranty on the parts, not the labor to install them to get their $15 back.
Would it have saved them money in the long run had they bought a quality part? Sure. But, some people just look at that bottom line.
Been there....done that. We used to let people furnish their own parts but we ended that about 8 years ago. In theory your points are valid but in the real world it caused too many issues and pissed off customers because we wouldn't warranty their cheap offshore parts. Even though you tell them before the job you can't warranty it, they still come back to you and insist the part was good and it was an issue with the technician putting it on.
Plus, like the other poster said you lose parts sales as well when you let someone furnish their own.
So some customers still find their own cheap parts wherever and then goto an independent shop and have them put it on. (Since their labor rate is less than ours.) That's okay...nothing wrong with that and that is not the kind of business I'm going to chase. I will say this, though, we make a fortune on fixing things that someone else tried before and 90% of the time that type of job went to an independent shop first. The dealers are just better trained and staffed for the most part and do a better job repairing the trucks.
There are certainly good independent shops out there but the number of good ones is declining and will continue to do so. These new trucks are far more complex to work on with the electronics and emissions systems on these trucks. The cost to learn how to work on these trucks plus purchase the tools that go with it keeps increasing at an alarming rate. For instance, we paid nearly $15,000 for a machine to clean diesel particulate filters in 2008. Was a huge expense but no independent shop in our area was willing to pay that bill.
In the last couple of years, I've noticed hourly shops rate increase 25-30% in my area. It used to be you'd go to an independent garage to avoid getting hosed by the dealership but now the prices between the two are creeping closer and closer. Dealerships have a lot more overhead compared to your local mom & pop shop e.g., more employees, courtesy shuttles, utilities, equipment, etc. A lot of the tiny, dark, dingy shops around me now charge $90/hr or more which I think is pretty high. Most of these places don't have free coffee & snacks, a comfy waiting room, or even proper heating. So why command the near dealer-level prices??
The reasons for the increases are as follows:
a. The shops are required to provide more labor-related benefits to the employees, which also include healthcare benefits.
b. EPA rules about the use and disposal of hazardous materials are now very strict, and to comply with such has become more expensive.
c. Licensing fees, employee training and certification (including OSHA's and EPA's), property tax, and so on have increased.
d. To have coffee, heat, and so on requires more expense that the shop can't afford.
The mechanic himself (or herself) hardly makes any money. The bulk of that hourly rate goes to pay for the business of having a mechanics' shop.
What iamweasel says above me on this thread is spot on. Good pop and mom shops are closing their doors because they can't afford running their businesses. All the regulations and taxes are just choking them to death. And the same will happen to anything related to the coal industry if the trend continues.
"... on the decline" ... perhaps in your area of the country.
But I see enough shops in my area of the country (Rocky Mountain States) where it's a mix of hourly and flat-rate. The go-getters in the trade tend to prefer the opportunities of flat-rate shops. One of my neighbors was the top diesel tech at a local Dodge dealership ... which he left to go out on his own because he'd only been making $100,000/year there. The dealership has had some turn-over in replacing him, but every time they advertise for that job opening, the ad always reads that it's a "$100,000/yr" opportunity, and they can show the pay record of the techs that made that before them. It's not a wish list, they've got fellows that did it for years. Cummins engines in the Dodge line are a money maker in the light truck segment of the industry.
As well, there's been a lot of consolidation of the farm equipment dealerships in this region. Recently, one of the new players expanding into this area from the Mid-West has had prominent ads in the local farm journals seeking "team players" for their service departments. The ads state that most of their workers bring in $100,000 year incomes, which are pretty handsome wages for our costs of living here. The owners know that to attract, train, and retain top quality workers they need to pay a commensurate amount to keep them here. (why? because folk with those skill sets can head over to the extractive industries and make as much or more money between hourly wages and overtime ... you'll see stories all the time around the region about a young man making $120-130,000/year working at a mine with all the overtime he can want to work).
The farm equipment industry has caught up with the auto and transport industries ... diesel engines in this sector are now using the same electronics and emissions systems as the other segments along with the latest in transmission technology. Tier 4 Engine technology is now the standard for off-road equipment and machinery, and it's paying their techs very well. (and from a farming standpoint, I rented a late model Case tractor for one of my hay cuts in 2015 ... it used 40% less fuel/hour than my favorite JD 4430 tractor ... these newer tractors are amazing. I bought a 35 HP Tier 3 Kubota two years ago for utility work and raking, and I've raked with it at less than 1 gallon per hour compared to 2-3 gallons per hour with an older MF diesel of same HP. I've spent hours cleaning out my corrals with the loader and used less than 1 gallon/hour with that tractor, too).
The bottom line here is that there's a lot of folk who are tied to the lower end of the automotive, trucking, farming, and heavy equipment industries who ... for a wide variety of reasons ... will not rise to the needs of the industry where they can earn a good living. Like other professions, you've got to have the training, motivation, good work ethics, good work habits, and physical/mental abilities to perform. Like it or not, being a tech at the top levels is not easy work; you've got to find a personal balance between the physical and mental challenges. For me, "working smart" has been the key to a lifetime of a good income ... and, while I'm well past retirement age and cannot anymore do the physical work I did for years, I've got the tooling and the smarts to still be in demand. I supplement my passive investment retirement income with higher earnings than you've indicated are what the industry pays, and I'm only working part-time.
One of the shops I work at on a contract basis on-call is training a couple of young men to work on the farming equipment in hopes that one of them will grow into being able to take over the shop in 10-15 years (the owner has physical limitations which will force him to retire early). I've been training them to do engine overhauls, mostly on diesel engines (just as well, the old time gas engine farm tractors are now a niche for the collectors except for the very small utility tractors ... so they leave those to me). We've got to get these boys up to a knowledge/productivity level where they can earn the dough that they want to have. So far, we've gone through 8 young men in the last 3 years where they simply didn't want to put forth the effort ... it was easier (and, perhaps more satisfying for them) going back to being a seasonal equipment operator for farming with the slack times being filled in with being a truck driver. Considering that they were earning $50,000/year driving a truck, they've got to come a long way with their mechanic skills and productivity to stay in the trade and want to invest the money in hand tools/storage.
This is pretty typical of what the mechanic industry is up against these days. While the "on-the-road" lifestyle may not be everybody's "cup-of-tea" ... let's face it. You see all the ads for truck drivers wanted at the national fleets paying this income level. You don't need to invest in tools. You just need your logbook, some training, some road smarts, a DOT physical, and a willingness to put in the hours. Looks pretty attractive in comparison to what you've got to do to be a mechanic for many people.
As well, I know guys who knock down over $50,000/year simply doing lawn/tree care in those months and snow removal in the winters. And those are the hourly paid workers ... the business owners are making a lot more than that, especially if they've got several trucks working all year. Other guys I know are tow truck operators, on call 24/7/365. They, too, are knocking down over $50,000/year.
So the mechanic profession has to match or exceed these wage levels if it's going to attract and retain competent employees. The employers are out there and the concern that the biz is not finding competent qualified workers has been an issue for at least 40 years that I know of. But as an employee, you've got to put forth the effort to be productive ... and it's not easy work. Low level grease monkey expectations will only pay what they are worth.
If you want the higher incomes of the mechanic business, be prepared to deliver a professional work product and value to your employer. The money is there.
My experience is in the Midwest (used to be high flat rate but now going more hourly) and southeast which is nearly all hourly. Yes, at $25-30/hour that would pay them $60K/year but like I said before we pay a bonus on top of that related to their productivity. That can add up for the good techs so it kind of puts a flat-rate component onto it.
We get 50% of our techs from two community colleges in the area. We hire them and train them from the ground up as they usually have no experience. That's okay, though, since we pair them with an experienced tech who can show them the way.
40% of the techs we hire come from independent shops. They leave those places to get more pay, more experience with heavy repair, more training and possibly a better career path. (We can offer them foreman jobs, service writer/manager jobs, etc.) I appreciate your viewpoints but your business as an independent shop is different than mine. 90% of my jobs are heavy repair - engine work or diagnostics, transmission/axle jobs, etc.
The remaining 10% come from these specialty vocational schools. There are only a few in the country that I hire from, though, as my OEM sponsors them so the techs graduate with a lot of training specific to our OEM.
Your point on the muni/school bus garages is spot-on, though. Those are just a joke and makes me sick as a taxpayer. If we lose a tech, 90% of the time that's where they go as they are willing to accept lower wages for a more relaxed job and the pension/retirement benefits that go with it. We offer a good 401k plan, etc, but the benefits at the muni garages are better.
If they are spending more than $5K on a toolbox that is their issue. That is overkill for what they should need. A technician working at a reputable shop or dealership will not need anything more than a decent set of wrenches, screwdrivers, etc. Basic tools. Anything beyond that like computers, ECM reading machines, special tools, etc are generally owned by the shop/dealer and will be used as common property amongst all the technicians at that location. (Including things such as battery chargers, tire blocks, jacks, creepers, cherry pickers, etc.)
This is why dealers charge more than independent shops. They tend to own more of their own tools/equipment and they also pay more for technician training. (Which is ridiculously expensive and excessive.) We get a lot of technicians that come work for us after leaving an independent shop due to the fact we pay and train more. In addition, when a technician joins our company sometimes I will buy their special tools from them if we can use it. (Something an independent shop made them buy but would have been something we would have normally owned ourselves at our dealership.)
5k on a box is nothing. Snap On has boxes that cost more then that and master techs can have tools valued as much as 100k. Here is a mechanic that was selling his tools that was getting out of the business. At least 50k in tools there. "All you need is basic tools" If you are serious about your career you buy quality tools that last and have a lot more then just basic tools.
5k on a box is nothing. Snap On has boxes that cost more then that and master techs can have tools valued as much as 100k. Here is a mechanic that was selling his tools that was getting out of the business. At least 50k in tools there. "All you need is basic tools" If you are serious about your career you buy quality tools that last and have a lot more then just basic tools.
The $5-10K number was an estimate of what it takes to get through an early part of your career. Sure some people can end up with more than that but it's their choice. At my dealership, for inexperienced techs, we generally loan them $2,500 on Day 1 to buy some tools and a basic box and that is enough to get started. Over time they accumulate more and get bigger tool boxes, etc. Here and there we will loan some experienced techs money if they want to buy something and we are comfortable loaning them money. (We just deduct money out of their paychecks for tool loans.)
Please don't confuse "basic" with low quality. The word "basic" refers to the types of tools they need. (Screwdrivers, wrenches, etc. Not diagnostic equipment, etc.)
Lastly, a mechanic in our shop will not own a lot of what that guy in the video had. We would. (Especially all that equipment towards the end of the video.)
My experience is in the Midwest (used to be high flat rate but now going more hourly) and southeast which is nearly all hourly. Yes, at $25-30/hour that would pay them $60K/year but like I said before we pay a bonus on top of that related to their productivity. That can add up for the good techs so it kind of puts a flat-rate component onto it.
We get 50% of our techs from two community colleges in the area. We hire them and train them from the ground up as they usually have no experience. That's okay, though, since we pair them with an experienced tech who can show them the way.
40% of the techs we hire come from independent shops. They leave those places to get more pay, more experience with heavy repair, more training and possibly a better career path. (We can offer them foreman jobs, service writer/manager jobs, etc.) I appreciate your viewpoints but your business as an independent shop is different than mine. 90% of my jobs are heavy repair - engine work or diagnostics, transmission/axle jobs, etc.
The remaining 10% come from these specialty vocational schools. There are only a few in the country that I hire from, though, as my OEM sponsors them so the techs graduate with a lot of training specific to our OEM.
Your point on the muni/school bus garages is spot-on, though. Those are just a joke and makes me sick as a taxpayer. If we lose a tech, 90% of the time that's where they go as they are willing to accept lower wages for a more relaxed job and the pension/retirement benefits that go with it. We offer a good 401k plan, etc, but the benefits at the muni garages are better.
Sounds like you guys run a top rate business. Which imo is the only way to have long term success in this business.
The $5-10K number was an estimate of what it takes to get through an early part of your career. Sure some people can end up with more than that but it's their choice. At my dealership, for inexperienced techs, we generally loan them $2,500 on Day 1 to buy some tools and a basic box and that is enough to get started. Over time they accumulate more and get bigger tool boxes, etc. Here and there we will loan some experienced techs money if they want to buy something and we are comfortable loaning them money. (We just deduct money out of their paychecks for tool loans.)
Please don't confuse "basic" with low quality. The word "basic" refers to the types of tools they need. (Screwdrivers, wrenches, etc. Not diagnostic equipment, etc.)
Lastly, a mechanic in our shop will not own a lot of what that guy in the video had. We would. (Especially all that equipment towards the end of the video.)
I know what basic means... i was just saying people invest in quality tools that last are serious about their career.
When I was a kid, maybe around 11 or 12, I went with my dad to a family friends home. This guy was a highly educated school administrator. Him and his wife lived in a beautiful home, they had late model cars. This guy did not work on his own cars. Because my dad has a reputation for repairing things he was called to stop by and take a look at one of their cars.
While there I made the comment, as many young kids might be apt to do, that my dad could fix just about anything, and never had to go spend money at the shop.
I have never forgotten his comment back to me. He tells me that instead of spending time learning to fix things, he went to school to get the best education that he could get. He did that so he could find the best job that he could find so that he would have plenty of money to spend at the shop so he would not have to worry about things that broke.
I learned that day, especially after looking around at their home, that maybe he had the better idea. Get the best education you can in a field that pays, so you don't have to worry about how much it is going to cost to fix something.
When I was a kid, maybe around 11 or 12, I went with my dad to a family friends home. This guy was a highly educated school administrator. Him and his wife lived in a beautiful home, they had late model cars. This guy did not work on his own cars. Because my dad has a reputation for repairing things he was called to stop by and take a look at one of their cars.
While there I made the comment, as many young kids might be apt to do, that my dad could fix just about anything, and never had to go spend money at the shop.
I have never forgotten his comment back to me. He tells me that instead of spending time learning to fix things, he went to school to get the best education that he could get. He did that so he could find the best job that he could find so that he would have plenty of money to spend at the shop so he would not have to worry about things that broke.
I learned that day, especially after looking around at their home, that maybe he had the better idea. Get the best education you can in a field that pays, so you don't have to worry about how much it is going to cost to fix something.
Thank you for this perspective.
I'm very glad that so many other people have adopted this outlook and put it into practice in their personal lives.
It's provided me with a lifetime career steady stream of doctors, lawyers, architects, administrators, bankers, managers, high dollar sales people (stock brokers and commodity brokers, insurance sales reps and managers), accountants, engineers (and I am one, too), pharmacists, medical specialty pro's, teachers, college professors, and a whole host of other highly paid professionals ... as clients.
Love 'em all and the cars, trucks, boats, farm equipment, motorcycles, and airplanes they've brought to me to work on through all the years. As well, their household appliances, plumbing, HVAC, electrical and similar problems that were below their skill level to repair. The better clients were the ones who recognized and appreciated my skillset and work product and gladly paid fairly for my services.
Can't say I did too badly ... with rental homes in resort areas, my farm/ranch, vehicle fleet, airplane, motorcycles, and a few other toys ... all paid for.
Still having too much fun with this stuff and the work ... just off the 'phone with a client who needs me to look at his ailing '95 Dodge 4x4 snowplow Cummins engine (blowing smoke and using a lot of oil), his Kubota 20 KW stand-by generator that didn't run in the power outage we had last night, and his Case skid-steer that's blowing oil all over the engine compartment. At $100/hr billing portal to portal, we're all very happy to see me tomorrow to assess the scope of work and effect repairs ASAP. Yes, I will get dirty ... but the winds are kicking up here at 75 mph gusts and it's not pleasant to be playing outside for a few days, so might as well be inside his shop and getting paid for my fun.
And if that's not enough on my plate this week, I'm overhauling the hydraulics (brake cylinder, pump, and steering boxes on 2 JD tractors, with a FIAT 50 HP tractor awaiting the power steering ram and hydraulic pump to be resealed as soon as it can be brought out of the barn (snowed in right now at my client's farm). This afternoon, I'm taking a 4650 JD block and crank into the machine shop when I pick up a 4020 block & crank & rods & head reworked so I can start assembling it this week ... the engine kit is on my doorstep and the boys are standing by to reassemble the tractor. They're tearing them down right now faster than I can work on the units for reassembly. My travels ... well, I'll be road testing the repairs just completed on a '95 Powerstroke that had intermittent running problems and poor starting as I want to be certain that the scope of the work I did took care of all the running issues before I return the rig to my client; 'twas a nice Saturday afternoon project.
Of course, there will always be "snobs" about their professional employment and incomes looking down upon those of us who choose to do menial professional work. I long ago learned to discern those folk and find that denial of services can be the best path for both of us to follow. That, or bid a job so high that the price/value ratio for my time and energy was worth their treatment. Some go away, unhappy .... some are thrilled to get my work "at any price, the checkbook is open". Some even appreciate that there's value and dignity in all forms of work product. I don't second guess my accountant or stockbroker or banker or investment adviser or my insurance agent, or my computer tech ... they all have their place in the scheme of life for us. Enjoy and keep smilin', what goes round goes round.
PS: my Dad, an engineer at Sperry Gyro who followed a successful career through to the Aerospace industry ... was also one "who could fix anything" and he taught me as well as he could when I was a lad. He, too, was the neighborhood resource for fixing household appliances, cars, and electrical. Folk appreciated what he did and the extra income was helpful for us, too.
In the last couple of years, I've noticed hourly shops rate increase 25-30% in my area. It used to be you'd go to an independent garage to avoid getting hosed by the dealership but now the prices between the two are creeping closer and closer. Dealerships have a lot more overhead compared to your local mom & pop shop e.g., more employees, courtesy shuttles, utilities, equipment, etc. A lot of the tiny, dark, dingy shops around me now charge $90/hr or more which I think is pretty high. Most of these places don't have free coffee & snacks, a comfy waiting room, or even proper heating. So why command the near dealer-level prices??
Haven't read the entire thread yet, so I'm not sure if this is being repetitive. There's be a propriotization of late in the automotive world. Changing parts can require reprogramming that only the dealer can provide no matter who did the repair. This may help explain some of the changes. Doing this is only going to push some indys out of the biz altogether.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If you are serious about your career you buy quality tools that last and have a lot more then just basic tools.
