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Let's also not overlook the hundreds of thousands of US stockholders and millions of US mutual fund holders that have Ford and/or GM stocks in their investments, some of which may be 401ks.
There is a lot more to a vehicle than just the assembly. Keep the money in the US
The stockholders of a company are actually the "owners", collectively. What would prevent a U.S. citizen from holding shares of, say, Toyota? Toyota Motor Company shares are traded on the New York Stock Exchange. I wonder what percentage of Toyota shareholders are American citizens? I wonder what percentage of GM or Ford shareholders are citizens of a country other than the U.S.?
Now it is time to add that I have also had very good service from my American made trucks... 1985 3/4 Chevrolet and 1991 1/2 Chevrolet.
No complaints... the 85 is now 31 years old and works very hard as a service truck... still on the original motor... did replace the transmission after 26 years.
The 91 looks so good I am always approached to see if I would sell... both vehicles have a lot of city miles... close to 200k now...
City miles in the Bay Area are a lot different than commuter miles.
The only thing I do special is 2500 mile oil changes and have always done so based on time... so it was every 6 months and now about once a year.
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 02-26-2016 at 12:48 PM..
I remember this argument a lot during the 1980s. The word on the news, almost nightly, and delivered in a very frightening Armagaddon-esque tone, was our huge trade deficit with Japan and how we were losing out to them. This scared the beejesus (spelling?) out of people like my grandfather who fought the Japanese in World War II and who was appalled that anyone would dare CONSIDER driving a car made by "those people." Supposedly only a cruel heartless person with no soul would dare support the enemy that way.
At the same time many told us that small cars were "death traps," the parts were expensive and hard to find, and they were hard to work on. At the same time the 4 cylinder cars barely had enough power to get out of their own way. Oh, and lest we forget, how could you buy something from the enemy?
Meanwhile I'd read in Consumer Reports about how reliable cars like the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and (to a lesser extent) the Mazda 323 and Nissan Sentra were. I heard the same thing from people I knew who owned them. They just worked. They didn't guzzle gas like it was a hot dog eating contest. The controls were laid out in a way that made sense, the headlight switches and windshield wiper controls were right there on the levers on the steering wheel vs being on the dash board where, at that time anyway, you had to stretch like you were doing yoga exercises to reach them. Meanwhile lemons like the Ford Tempo, Dodge Omni/Plymouth Horizon and Chevrolet Cavalier kept stealing all of your money courtesy of car repairs, money that you could otherwise use to ENJOY life.
I'm sorry, but my loyalty is to whoever makes a car that WORKS. Period. No excuses. No nonsense about how "things happen" and "you expect too much." Bologna. Make a car that goes, and goes, and goes, and goes, and doesn't steal all of my money from me via getting 10 mpg or needing constant repairs. My money and time are for ENJOYING life, not feeding or personally fixing the family metal dinosaur while everyone else is at the lake staring at the gorgeous women in their bikinis.
And hey, if the US car companies can do it, I'm fine with that. We've driven Saturns before and they've done us well, and tend to go for less than the Toyotas and Hondas which tend to go for a lot owing to their reputation for reliability. Our 2002 has almost 200,000 miles on it and over the past 4 years maybe once a year I'll have to spend $200 on something that fails, that's it, after that it goes right back to rolling along. So don't tell me that the US companies can't make a reliable product, they can if they care enough.
At the same time, I just grabbed a 2000 Toyota Corolla for $1500 and 180,000 miles that runs so smoothly. Heck, even the climate control buttons and such still have a firmness to their "clicks" that makes them seem like they were just made, there's no "mushiness" to them. It shifts quietly, yet gets up to speed decently quickly, gets good gas mileage, and the heat and A/C work as they should.
Meanwhile my in-laws insist on driving Dodge this and Chevrolet that with everything, and every time I turn around they're fixing something, and they act like it's the most normal thing in the world to have one's cars always stealing their money that could used for ENJOYING life a little bit. They sometimes look at me like I'm from another planet when I tell them that cars should just keep on going and going.
I am all business when it comes to this. I care about what works. Spare me patriotism and politics. I care about a car that works and doesn't steal my money from me from getting 12 or 15 mpg and keeping on needing constant repairs. That is ALL I care about. Build such a car, or else you will get none of my business.
Thank you, Shyguy, you hit it out the park.
I had a 1994 Saturn SL1 and that vehicles had 350,000+ and was still going when it was sold for $1,000. I had a 2008 Vue XR AWD that the ex got in the divorce. I never had a problem with that vehicle. Ever. I still have a 2006 Relay 3 AWD that has low miles (73,000+ miles) and has been very reliable.
Yes, when GM decided to really compete with the Japanese, they were able to create Saturn. Once GM didn't care anymore, it took away Saturn's independence and autonomy and chose to run it into the ground through indifference and neglect.
My most recent buy is a CPO 2013 Subaru Outback 2.5i. IMHO, this is the perfect all-around, do everything, be everything vehicle. If the new 7 passenger model due out in late 2017/early 2018 is as good as the Outback, then I may very well become an absolute "Subaru for life" fan.
Subaru is what Saturn could, should, and would have been if it had been left independent and autonomous by GM.
You can thank Republicans in congress for constantly refusing to stand to Japan and impose similar tariffs on japanese products
I don't think it's a Democrat/Republican blame game here - trade issues were and are pretty tricky and can't really be distilled to a certain political party or parties. Also, remember, trade is a 2-way street - if you slap big tariffs on one country, they'll retaliate. Remember, the Japanese also buy US goods such as airliners.
Back in the 1980s the US was really scared of Japan in terms of trade issues - particularly the trade deficit. The US automobile industry put a lot of pressure on the government to do something (this was the Reagan administration). You got the VRA (Voluntary Restraint Agreement) that the Japanese automakers agreed to - which was to limit the quantity of cars exported to the US.
The effects:
1) The Japanese automakers started shipped higher priced cars in order to maximize their revenue on fewer units - which led to the creation of upscale models/brands such as Lexus, Acura and Infiniti
2) which in turn created more competition for the Big 3's luxury models
3) encouraged them to build manufacturing plants in the US (starting with Honda's Ohio Plant in 1982). The value of the yen also was a factor as well.
None of these really ultimately helped protect the Big 3 from competition, it actually increased pressure on them.
So be careful of what you ask for - you might actually get it.
If it's a myth, why are insurance costs lowest for Toyotas? Depreciation is also milder in Toyota vehicles.
Depreciation being lower doesn't mean it isn't a myth. Myth in this sense is used to describe something people believe which isn't real. If people believe there is a lasting quality then there is lower depreciation, doesn't mean they are right however....could be just overpaying.
In general however, Toyotas used to have much better overall reliability. Part of this is because they made basic cars and the fewer bells and whistles the less could go wrong. The other part was that quality at US makers was poor.
Today however, Toyota is generally still a little better but not by that much. Honda has actually taken the lead.
Please note I'm not caveating by saying "in my opinion".
I've seen vehicle repair frequency and cost information on millions and millions of vehicles and the rates that are subsequently set for service contracts on those vehicles. I'm not talking anecdotally about this one Toyota I owned or the Ford my kid is driving etc etc.
P.S. Never. Never ever. Under any circumstances buy a vehicle that is a new platform until they've been making them for a year or more. They have about 2-3x the problems that vehicles have after a year or two of debugging the design and production process.
You might be forgetting the 10's of thousands of engineers, designers, marketers, secretaries, programmers, accountants, etc. that Ford has in Dearborn and GM has in Detroit.
Let's also not overlook the hundreds of thousands of US stockholders and millions of US mutual fund holders that have Ford and/or GM stocks in their investments, some of which may be 401ks.
There is a lot more to a vehicle than just the assembly. Keep the money in the US
And, frankly, be proud of what you drive!
And? Toyota has all of those types of employees, and stockholders too.
Locally Toyota bough half of a couple of suppliers that were ready to go out of business. Without that plant, those suppliers would have shut their doors. During the recession when the big 3 were laying off people, and taking government payoffs, Toyota cut production, but still kept everyone on full time even if they were being paid to sweep floors or paint offices.
So those 10s of thousands of employees are not better for the economy than the hundreds of thousands Toyota employees.
The point is just because it is an "American" company, that has production out of the country, doesn't mean that it is any better for the economy than a Japanese company that has production in the US.
The consumer when it comes to that market share is largely middle aged male and not as easy to manipulate as a first time car buyer, or female looking for basic transportation. That's largely how Toyota has grabbed so much of the market share. Simply feeding off of the myth that they produce a more reliable product, which again going by facts and figures, is indeed a myth.
First to the "CANT kill a Toyota" comment. Trust me, you can 'kill' a Toyota same as anything else. We're living in the 21'st century, any one of the major manufacturers can produce a vehicle that you can abuse to an extent.
As for the choice of vehicles for 80% of the world, that alone doesn't grant them superiority status. For example, full size American trucks aren't allowed to be sold anywhere on Japanese soil due to unfair tariff laws imposed by that government. Reason being? Because obviously domestic sales would no doubt threaten Japans monopoly over their own market share in their own country. It's no secret either that the playing field is heavily in their advantage when it comes to domestic sales over here. Again, the superior product approach is a myth. There might have been some truth to it in the mid seventies, but not in this day and age.
What really bothers me (should bother anybody) is that Toyota is succeeding in dismantling the US auto industry and they're relying on the American consumer in order to do it. How embarrassing (for us as a nation) and you know they think of us as complete fools as a result.
If Toyota or Nissan was better then Ford or Dodge, then why on earth do almost all of our law enforcements across North America depend on a ford product ( Police Interceptor) to protect our streets, highways, schools, play grounds... Why are 80% of our ambulances stamped with a Ford logo... if these products were unreliable then why do the people that we put the safety of our lives into their hands depend on and put their lives into the hands of a Ford/Dodge?
As far as mileage goes, start inspecting the odometer readings on the bazillions of crown victoria cabs and squad cars that dot the landscape. Putting down huge mileage is critical to the guys that own and operate those cabs as a business
Notice when you get into these little debates, once you start throwing facts around, the pro Japan supporter starts to get desperate with "well, what brand of TV do you own?" Obviously, the TV is a crucial component in their lives and mainly responsible for their pro Japan quality leanings due to the ad spots targeted at them.
Fact of the matter is though (as far as this subject) Japan is trying its best to drive Detroit into the ground (especially regarding the current state of things)-- and relying on the aid of the American consumer in order to do it.
I find it disturbing, but not unexpected, that many people that have children don't have the modicum of intelligence to realize that without American industry and American made products their progeny will have a service job at McDonalds for a future. But a large number of American's are in fact stupid and will believe anything to the point of idiocy
We get the picture: you're singling out Toyota as the punching bag for lost American jobs. *Sigh*
P.S. We've had a number of Toyotas (and Hondas, and Nissans) that we just couldn't "kill." Um....It's just an expression.
Latest Consumer Reports just came in. Entire mag is dedicated to cars. Toyota/Lexus tops practically all charts except one - Who Makes The Best Cars. Number 8 there. But resell value, reliability and what not else - it's dominated by Toyota.
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