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Old 08-29-2016, 11:08 PM
 
5,075 posts, read 11,067,856 times
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Hint: The high maintenance isn't designed for dealer profit, it's planned obsolescence.
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Old 08-30-2016, 01:18 AM
 
Location: NYC
20,550 posts, read 17,683,966 times
Reputation: 25616
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTE1969 View Post
YEAH, but I drive a 1999 Honda Civic HX and a 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan SXT.

My 1999 Honda is an easy to repair "classic oldie" vehicle. With M/T, I can easily do my own valve adjustments. Last one took one hour. The last Honda Fit I looked at - it was a big incredible mess to do a valve adjustment. Valve adjustments are one of the unique but nasty things about Honda's. But at least it's not a GERMAN vehicle, I guess...

You guys know the story about the high maintenance costs of a GERMAN vehicle... Looking into it, I see purposely "stupid [?]" engineering in them!

I ran into this one guy who needed a jump start on his Mecedes car. The electric battery was put into the rear trunk where the lock is opened by a battery powered switch. If the battery is dead and the trunk is locked, you have to rip off the front right floor covering and jump start the battery with a battery connection there. Really, either that is a) Stupid Engineering b) Puposeful "Design ****" engineering!
Studies has shown that a battery in the rear can be a life saver. Majority of crashes involve head-on where the battery is destroyed and the acid leak can cause fires with a hot engine and fuel. Another problem is that battery is often destroyed in a crash and the occupants cannot get out because no power and power door locks and windows are disabled. So there's a safety purpose over convenience.
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Old 08-30-2016, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Shady Drifter
2,444 posts, read 2,762,267 times
Reputation: 4118
Putting a battery in the trunk is also smart engineering for weight balance.
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Old 08-30-2016, 01:20 PM
 
15,793 posts, read 20,472,889 times
Reputation: 20969
I'm in Manufacturing Engineering. Just a few insights in the industry....


Making things hard to repair? No, that's not to pad dealer profits and make extra money. That's a case of corporate directive of trying to shove 10 pounds of ****, in a 5 pound bag. You have multiple engine options, possibly multiple drivetrain and transmission and other options. Perhaps a few different vehicle platforms share the same basic chassis. You can't make everyone happy and design for everything. Sorry, I take that back. You can, but you aren't going to want to pay what it costs. And also often, more times than not, there's simply no other way to do something.


Planned obsolescence? No, that's called "This item is going to cost $x, but upper management wants me to reduce it by $y, what can I make cheaper but keep all the bells and whistles that marketing wants?" Oh, look, a vendor in china will make it at 10% less than the current supplier.


Seriously, I hear this all the time. My prototypes are usually pretty robust, but expensive as hell. Then I have to slash costs just to make it competitive for sale, as a result, things get cost-engineered. There is so much truth in this venn diagram
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Old 08-31-2016, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
2,983 posts, read 3,088,674 times
Reputation: 4552
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeagleEagleDFW View Post
Putting a battery in the trunk is also smart engineering for weight balance.


Yup. BMWs, especially are engineered for driving ability and feel, which costs more, and is a bit more complex than what cheaper cars deliver. It's why sports cars tend to cost more and take more maintenance. You ever see a race car get rebuilt between races? it's because they are VERY good at what they do, but it takes a LOT of upkeep and repairing to keep them at their best. You'd never see a race car not maintained on a regular basis. But street cars are expected to be. Race cars cost tons of money and the parts cost more than regular parts and yet THEY have to be maintained to high standards on a constant basis. There's no conspiracy to make race car costs higher and maintenance or repairs more costly or more frequent, it's just a byproduct of top performance machines.


Same with athletes that exercise and eat better than you do, OP. To be at top physical condition and ability, you have to maintain yourself more than average people. And since average people are driving the cars, even the "outrageous" maintenance on street driven performance/luxury cars is pretty low, considering the overall ability.


It's a fine balance, as BostonMike says between cost, robustness, and maintenance by people that won't maintain their cars anyhow, and just expect to get in and drive.


OP, quit being paranoid.
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Old 08-31-2016, 07:57 AM
 
8,081 posts, read 6,953,154 times
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I have a Nissan Frontier, most bolts are 10mm and not a lot of specialty tools, but compared to an old Ford it's just a miserable truck to tinker with because everything is in a hard to reach spot.
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Old 08-31-2016, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Southern Nevada
6,746 posts, read 3,361,971 times
Reputation: 10356
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeagleEagleDFW View Post
Putting a battery in the trunk is also smart engineering for weight balance.
Chevy does that with the Camaro, and maybe some other models. Camaro has terminals under the hood in case the car needs a jump.

They have also achieved a nearly 50-50 weight balance. The older Camaro's were known to be bad in winter driving due to being so light in the rear end and having rear-wheel drive, but with 50-50 balance, it doesn't matter if a car is front or rear wheel drive. I can vouch for that.

My 2015 Camaro with all-season tires is a tank in the snow. Of course, you have drive like a sane person, but there is virtually no skidding or sliding. I was pleasantly surprised by that.
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Old 09-01-2016, 12:55 PM
 
1,135 posts, read 1,115,529 times
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Oh, I think back way in 1994 or so I had a short wire battery fire on my 1990 Civic Si. So I don't remember if I did put the battery in the rear trunk. I may have so that the wiring to my high amperage auto amp would be short.

But it's total ultimate stupidity to put the battery in the trunk and to have the trunk lid only opened by battery power. - that was in the MERCEDES I saw. In this application, the trunk lock should have been MECHANICAL.

But no, today's vehicle ARE PURPOSELY DUMB ENGINEERED TO BE HARD TO MAINTAIN, AND I WILL PROVE 3 EXAMPLES.

1) 1999 Honda Civic Engine, see: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8


2) Compare the above's simplistic engine layout to a harder to repair 2015 Honda FIT : https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8

3) Now look at the STUPID engine layout of the 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee:
2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Engine - 2017-2018 Jeep Models

And look at the poor placement of engine components of the engine: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8

So, the proof is in the pudding, AND THE "PUDDING" PICTURES SHOW THAT MODERN VEHICLES ARE PURPOSELY ENGINEERED TO BE DIFFICULT TO REPLACE. OR ELSE, DO WE SAY AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEER CURRENTLY ARE A BUNCH OF DUMB-----? Or do they smartly conspire a conspiracy to make engines hard to repair?

Because it all comes back to every consumer - very high costs to maintain and repair a vehicle.

I went to a Dodge Dealership and I asked for a certain repair, and they said to do it they had to remove a "plenum" and charge $750 labor for that. That was total BS because I knew how to repair that part and there was no plenum to remove for it's replacement. That's maybe why all modern engine[?] have a "plenum," too...
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Old 09-01-2016, 01:49 PM
 
3,754 posts, read 4,233,863 times
Reputation: 7773
My costs of maintaining vehicles has flatlined for the last decade or so. I have just about every tool you could possibly need to work on American, European, and Asian makes. Euro cars typical require the standard Metric stuff as well as Torx and E-Torx stuff. I've got it all, in every size. I've even got some expensive diagnostic equipment that is manufacturer specific to diagnose and clear codes, and even program basic things.

So to me, my costs boil down to the part costs, and for most things, it doesn't matter where a car is made from, the cost will be fairly comparable, especially on the common stuff.

I kind of enjoy it when I actually don't have a tool I need to do a job... Gives me an excuse to buy another tool. If I'm doing the work myself, I can always justify the cost because I'm still paying less to fix something rather than going to the dealership/indy shop.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:51 AM
 
4,685 posts, read 6,133,422 times
Reputation: 3988
Its not just German Brands, FORD is notorious for stupid designs when trying to repair a car. My Taurus Duratec has a Engine crank sensor and comes out maybe a inch or 2, but in order to get it out, an engine mount is sitting right next to it and must come off. In order to put new struts on my Taurus, you have to lower the engine subframe a few inches and to replace the rear struts, you have to remove the back seat.

Some Jaguars, have to have the entire rear suspension removed, just to replace a fuel pump.

Even GM on simple engines like the 1.4L on the Cruze, requires you to remove an engine mount and support the engine, just to replace a serpentine belt.


Modern cars seemed to be designed to be worked on from underneath and the average person will not have all the tools to jack a car up and random stands to lower a fuel tank or other parts with and this doesnt get into replacing stuff like door locks that require 3 hours of labor.

Cars can be made simpler to work on, but the end result will be complaints by auto magazines and the public about the car not being refined or too may access panels, etc.
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