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Old 09-28-2016, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
2,983 posts, read 3,055,380 times
Reputation: 4552

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Quote:
Originally Posted by IShootNikon View Post
Just saying once a car is out of warranty does not necessarily mean it's a beater. There is a balance.
Oh, I agree. My own 15 year old BMW is no beater. But it COULD have a tragic breakdown at any moment, and the fear of that is why cars like mine don't hold their value in the used market.


Quote:
Even if all you do is change the oil most cars these days are reliable (meaning they will start each morning and get you to your destination)
And many have trans and engine failures, too, from design flaws. We've seen this from all makes, even under warranty, so the possibility is there. If a person is not a DIYer, then owning a car, any car, out of warranty is a crapshoot. I mean, independent service and repair shops don't exist and make a profit without a big market for their services...
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Old 09-28-2016, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
17,120 posts, read 56,786,488 times
Reputation: 18411
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
I can just as easily buy lottery tickets and bet on horse races.

Anyhow, assuming that I drive less than average, If said M3 had 36,000 miles on it in 2002, and I drove 12,000/year, I would be in a BMW with 200K miles. I can imagine an easy $1,000/year in maintenance on the car. Am I likely to sell a 200K mile daily driver for $31K? I doubt it.

My Dad has an E30 that has doubled in monetary value since he bought it 10 years ago. But he won't come out ahead. It costs money to store, to maintain, to insure.

Some cars are better than others, but they are depreciating assets, not investments, unless you have a skill turning a wrench and can fix and flip them.
Well, anyone who has driven one of these cars knows what's what in terms of why they are desirable. When I bought the car, I knew there were about 5000 of them imported from 88 to 91. When I bought I would guess that maybe 1000 to 1500 of the cars were still in really good, stock shape, the rest had been wrecked or turned into track rats. I admit I was a bit surprised at the amount of appreciation so soon, but, obviously the car was a good bet.

Good E30 325i cars, if you can find them, are up around $15K. More common and less desirable than the M, but not a bad bet, some kids who didn't have the cash for an M have done alright with these.

So it's more like betting on horses (which can involve skill if you know what you are doing) than buying a lottery ticket.

Your Dad needs a better insurance company, if it's a collector car consider Hagarty. Apparently you need a bigger garage as well, if paying for rented storage.

My daily drivers, an 82 Scirocco and a 92 Subie Legacy, are not going to appreciate but have ceased to depreciate long ago.

Of course one has to have some mechanical ability to do this, but you don't have to be at the level of a NASCAR crew chief to pull it off.
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Old 09-28-2016, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
13,639 posts, read 12,281,692 times
Reputation: 20058
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Well, anyone who has driven one of these cars knows what's what in terms of why they are desirable. When I bought the car, I knew there were about 5000 of them imported from 88 to 91. When I bought I would guess that maybe 1000 to 1500 of the cars were still in really good, stock shape, the rest had been wrecked or turned into track rats. I admit I was a bit surprised at the amount of appreciation so soon, but, obviously the car was a good bet.

Good E30 325i cars, if you can find them, are up around $15K. More common and less desirable than the M, but not a bad bet, some kids who didn't have the cash for an M have done alright with these.

So it's more like betting on horses (which can involve skill if you know what you are doing) than buying a lottery ticket.

Your Dad needs a better insurance company, if it's a collector car consider Hagarty. Apparently you need a bigger garage as well, if paying for rented storage.

My daily drivers, an 82 Scirocco and a 92 Subie Legacy, are not going to appreciate but have ceased to depreciate long ago.

Of course one has to have some mechanical ability to do this, but you don't have to be at the level of a NASCAR crew chief to pull it off.
Its seasonal. He doesn't want to park his newer car in the driveway during winter in the Midwest, and only has a 2 car garage. I doubt its a collector, its just a 91 318 5 speed in really nice shape, nice ragtop, with low miles. He changes the oil in it at the beginning of the summer and doesn't put 3000 miles on it the whole summer.

I have a neighbor on my street convinced that his Dodge Magnum with a hemi is going to be a classic. Another thinks the same of his late model Vette. I think they're cracked but it isn't my business.

My point is, that if you want to keep a car like that, don't do it thinking its going to pay off someday. Do it because you enjoy it. Like a boat.
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Old 09-28-2016, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
17,120 posts, read 56,786,488 times
Reputation: 18411
Certainly, the point of a "fun" car, one that is more about being fun to drive and own, than utilitarian "A to B" transportation, is FUN! If it ain't fun, if you are just trying to make money, yeah, cars are a hard and risky way for anyone who is not a pro to make any money. To hear the pros whine about it, it ain't an easy or sure way for them to make money either.

Trying to keep a car decent in the Midwest, with the snowy salted roads, is a study in frustration at best.

The 318 is of course the least collectable of the E30's, but at least it's a 5-speed, at this point given how he drives the car, your Dad should at least have a stable value, probably more than he paid for it.

Of the recent cars, I would think maybe the Hellcats will appreciate. Maybe. Ordinary Dodge Magnum, "Hemi" or not, I sort of doubt it. So far, historically, Corvettes have all depreciated up to a point, then they start appreciating. So far.
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Old 09-28-2016, 07:53 PM
 
8,020 posts, read 3,589,957 times
Reputation: 2680
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Well, anyone who has driven one of these cars knows what's what in terms of why they are desirable. When I bought the car, I knew there were about 5000 of them imported from 88 to 91. When I bought I would guess that maybe 1000 to 1500 of the cars were still in really good, stock shape, the rest had been wrecked or turned into track rats. I admit I was a bit surprised at the amount of appreciation so soon, but, obviously the car was a good bet.

Good E30 325i cars, if you can find them, are up around $15K. More common and less desirable than the M, but not a bad bet, some kids who didn't have the cash for an M have done alright with these.

So it's more like betting on horses (which can involve skill if you know what you are doing) than buying a lottery ticket.

Your Dad needs a better insurance company, if it's a collector car consider Hagarty. Apparently you need a bigger garage as well, if paying for rented storage.

My daily drivers, an 82 Scirocco and a 92 Subie Legacy, are not going to appreciate but have ceased to depreciate long ago.

Of course one has to have some mechanical ability to do this, but you don't have to be at the level of a NASCAR crew chief to pull it off.
I was going to say that the ones (the M3s you are talking about) that are still alive today probably have very little mileage on them, but I checked, and I do see some with a bit over 100k (which is still very little for the age, certainly not daily drivers) and the asking is in the 50-60k range..

Speaking of car appreciation: a 2003 Enzo with the "modest" original msrp of 700k goes for 3.5mil today. This is what, like 13%/year return , better than the stock market..
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Old 09-30-2016, 08:37 AM
 
528 posts, read 817,735 times
Reputation: 846
Three weeks ago I leased a 2016 Kia Forte 5 for $149.00 a month with no money due at signing. Actually they needed $1000 down to get the payment to that $149.00. They gave me $1000 for my beat to hell 2002 Dodge Stratus Coupe with 150,000 miles and a glowing check engine light. I probably could have sold it myself for maybe $1200.00 but I didn't feel the hassle was worth $200.00.

It's a 3 year 36,000 mile lease which should work well for me since I don't put but 10,000 miles a year on my vehicles. This is the 4th vehicle I have leased but, they have all been similar to this new one. Nothing fancy, pretty much basic transportation daily drivers that have a warranty. Put gas in it, do the routine maintenance (usually just oil changes) and keep it as scratch and ding free as possible and turn it in or buy it when the lease is up. I am very gentle on my vehicles which is important if you return the car at lease end. You are responsible for what they consider excessive wear and tear which can amount to hundreds of dollars at lease end. Of the four vehicles I have leased over the years I purchased one and returned two. I have never had to pay anything for excessive wear and tear.
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Old 09-30-2016, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,012 posts, read 7,155,230 times
Reputation: 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by xjken View Post
Three weeks ago I leased a 2016 Kia Forte 5 for $149.00 a month with no money due at signing. Actually they needed $1000 down to get the payment to that $149.00. They gave me $1000 for my beat to hell 2002 Dodge Stratus Coupe with 150,000 miles and a glowing check engine light. I probably could have sold it myself for maybe $1200.00 but I didn't feel the hassle was worth $200.00.

It's a 3 year 36,000 mile lease which should work well for me since I don't put but 10,000 miles a year on my vehicles. This is the 4th vehicle I have leased but, they have all been similar to this new one. Nothing fancy, pretty much basic transportation daily drivers that have a warranty. Put gas in it, do the routine maintenance (usually just oil changes) and keep it as scratch and ding free as possible and turn it in or buy it when the lease is up. I am very gentle on my vehicles which is important if you return the car at lease end. You are responsible for what they consider excessive wear and tear which can amount to hundreds of dollars at lease end. Of the four vehicles I have leased over the years I purchased one and returned two. I have never had to pay anything for excessive wear and tear.
This is why I don't lease. My wife is some kind of magnet for flying rocks... every car she's ever owned gets dinged up by them. I also seem to have the worst luck with door dings in parking lots, etc...

I also drive around 18k miles a year because I choose cars that I actually like to drive, and thus will go on afternoon leisurely drives now and then.
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Old 09-30-2016, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
2,983 posts, read 3,055,380 times
Reputation: 4552
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
I also drive around 18k miles a year because I choose cars that I actually like to drive, and thus will go on afternoon leisurely drives now and then.


I only commute 16 miles a day, 3 days a week, and my wife does less than that, so we can lease fun cars that get the occasional road trip and stay well under the 12k per year mileage limit on the lower price lease rate. The MINI is leased and already did a road trip to Florida and a number of backroads fun road trips around the state here. When I had my Volt lease, I drove it to Maine and back and still had no problem staying under the mileage cap.


But as I said before, it's about the right tool for the job. Sometimes that's a lease, and sometimes it's not. I buy cars I like, too, and sometimes, like with the MINI or Volt, that's leasing. Other times, like with my BMW, that's purchasing with cash. Sometimes, like with my Mustang GT, that's financing it and paying it down quickly.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:29 PM
 
2,149 posts, read 4,139,919 times
Reputation: 1325
Man, I have to say this thread is informative because I started a thread about purchasing a car and I was leaning towards buying. Now I'm not so sure. The Benz dealership was pushing me to lease. I can afford to pay for the car outright but the problem that still keeps me up at night is cutting a check for $35K. My wife and I want to buy a house and my idea was to stay in this rental for 2 years so that it allows me to recoup some $ to help with the downpayment on said house. My problem is two fold though: if I buy, I plan on trading it in at the end of the warranty. When I walk into the lot, I at least have some collateral to play with and just end up paying the difference between the trade in value and whatever the next car is worth. Leasing doesn't give me that option, I'm basically renting and turning in the keys at the end of it and do the whole thing over again. So that's my conundrum, I totally get a car loses 15% so I'm not sure why my brain can't process the fact that I'm paying in full for a depreciating asset.
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Old 10-07-2016, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
5,915 posts, read 6,410,476 times
Reputation: 4033
Very interesting thread. Most of what I got out of this thread is that there are those who are so financially set that leasing is not ever going to be an issue for them. For some, they've said, "I have more money than I know what to do with..." um, if you're having a problem deciding what to do with your money, you can always give it to me! Kids are not cheap! Wives are expensive!

I've always been under the impression that leasing is a bad deal. However, I find it very interesting about the idea of renting/leasing stuff that depreciates, and buying stuff that appreciates. That's a very interesting idea. When you look at it like that, it makes perfect sense.

I've never leased, but I may consider it if:

1. I don't have to put anything down at all, no $$$ due at signing or anything like that.
2. The payments are within my monthly budget.
3. The lease is no more than 3 years, most definitely not past warranty.
4. The yearly mileage allowance is not absurdly low.
5. I'm able to be in a vehicle that I couldn't afford to purchase.

And if I could add a six, I would say that I would only want to lease a car with new, unproven tech for no more than two years.
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