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Old 04-20-2017, 03:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
That may be your area, but it isn't mine. The point being that when there is no dealer around, an independent will become certified so they can gain the business. This should be a very simple concept for you to understand if you're living and breathing this every day.




Detroit Diagnostic Link 8.3 is available to purchase online. I'm not going to add the link here for fear of violating the site TOS, but you can easily google it. That website also offers the OEM software for other brands as well. It's easy to find. Our dealership used it when we needed to work on equipment we didn't have software for.
Yet again, a "certified independent" basically *IS* a dealer. Same difference, really.

The Detroit Diagnostic Link you are referring to is the basic version and not enough to troubleshoot complicated repairs. Different animal, there...the full-blown version is only available to dealers. You must have access to Daimler/Detroit systems to get the full functionality of it.

https://diagnosticlink.nexiq.com/DTN...istration.aspx

So franchised dealers and "certified/franchised" independents can get the full version, others cannot. It says on the site "Certain features are available for authorized users only."

In addition, the only you can file warranty claims on behalf of the customer is if you are franchised in some way, do the training requirements, etc. That is a bigger cost hurdle to overcome than most independents are willing to deal with. Diagnostic Link is only one of many tools dealers have to solve major issues.
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Huntsville
6,013 posts, read 6,588,794 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
Yet again, a "certified independent" basically *IS* a dealer. Same difference, really.

The Detroit Diagnostic Link you are referring to is the basic version and not enough to troubleshoot complicated repairs. Different animal, there...the full-blown version is only available to dealers. You must have access to Daimler/Detroit systems to get the full functionality of it.

https://diagnosticlink.nexiq.com/DTN...istration.aspx

So franchised dealers and "certified/franchised" independents can get the full version, others cannot. It says on the site "Certain features are available for authorized users only."

In addition, the only you can file warranty claims on behalf of the customer is if you are franchised in some way, do the training requirements, etc. That is a bigger cost hurdle to overcome than most independents are willing to deal with. Diagnostic Link is only one of many tools dealers have to solve major issues.


You are dancing around the point I am trying to make.


If the manufacturer decides to sell direct to the public in lieu of a dealership (a dealership sells new cars, used cars, performs service, and sells parts) model, independent shops can become licensed to do the service work for the manufacturer instead of the manufacturer trying to spend money to open its own stores. That was your argument. My argument is that the won't have to because independent shops can do the same work for them. You have acknowledged that this is true in your posts.


When there are no franchised dealerships to do service work, independent shops will fill the void. That is a large opportunity for them to grow their business and revenue stream. Why on earth would you think they wouldn't take the opportunity when it is presented to them on a silver platter?


You argue that the independents wont be able to get the things the dealers can, and cannot perform the same level of service that the dealer can, and I argue that they can. ESPECIALLY if they are a certified repair facility. Then you go back and agree with my posts in your argument. I'm not real sure where your hiccup is....
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:13 PM
 
2,376 posts, read 2,894,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
You are dancing around the point I am trying to make.


If the manufacturer decides to sell direct to the public in lieu of a dealership (a dealership sells new cars, used cars, performs service, and sells parts) model, independent shops can become licensed to do the service work for the manufacturer instead of the manufacturer trying to spend money to open its own stores. That was your argument. My argument is that the won't have to because independent shops can do the same work for them. You have acknowledged that this is true in your posts.


When there are no franchised dealerships to do service work, independent shops will fill the void. That is a large opportunity for them to grow their business and revenue stream. Why on earth would you think they wouldn't take the opportunity when it is presented to them on a silver platter?


You argue that the independents wont be able to get the things the dealers can, and cannot perform the same level of service that the dealer can, and I argue that they can. ESPECIALLY if they are a certified repair facility. Then you go back and agree with my posts in your argument. I'm not real sure where your hiccup is....

If a true independent dealer becomes "certified" per the manufacturer guidelines then how is that different than a real dealer? It's basically the same thing and I would consider that "certified independent" a dealer as well. It is owned by someone other than the manufacturer.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:36 PM
 
2,684 posts, read 2,364,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rynldsbr View Post
Why? Just because it is a large ticket item? Nothing else sells by that business model. I can go to Lowes, Best Buy, Home Depot, Sears, or a local mom-and-pop store to get my <insert brand here> washer and dryer set and I will get a different price at each place. Some will offer free haul away service, some will include the hoses and hook it up for me. Some will not. Yet 99% of the population doesn't bash them over their business model. Why is that?


Most of those stores have financing options, they will try to sell you extended warranties, and they absolutely can negotiate on their prices. Same business model. Why the hatred for dealerships? Just because it has a manufacturers logo on the sign out front the public seems to think they are getting screwed.


Airlines! You can pay 10x the price for the same ticket on the same plane for the same flight depending on where and when you bought it. Why does the world not flip out on the sales model for airfare?


If you hate the "hours-long process of haggling, paperwork, and misery" of buying a car then change the process. identify what you want and what you think is a fair price and turn it into a 10 minute process. I've done it, numerous times. You can do it, or you can pay for someone else to do it. Expecting a profitable business model to change simply because you don't know how to do it is ridiculous.
That's the entire point I was making. If you want dishwasher XYZ, you can go to the website for lowes, home depot, walmart, etc and see the price, then select where you purchase it from. The company that prices it best (or offers best service etc) wins. It's not MSRP $1,000, actual price somewhere between $500 and $1000 depending on which salesman you get and how hard you haggle.

I just don't understand how you think buying something from a store is anything like buying a car. When I buy an expensive TV, for example, I pick out a model I want, then I check the web for who has the best price, then I put in my credit card info and it shows up in a few days. Or buy it in person- go to walmart, stick it in the cart, swipe my card, get the "do you want a warranty?", say "no", sign, leave. Truly a matter of minutes, if not seconds.

Oh, and your "10 minute" car buying experience is complete bull. You walk in, give them the price, then they go and check with their manager, then they come back with a yes/no. If they say "yes" to your first price, congratulations- you just got ripped off; anytime a dealer takes your first price they are laughing at you after you leave because they got you to overpay. If/when they say "no", then you leave, wait for the salesman to get you on the lot/on the phone, give you yet another price that still isn't your price, then you truly leave. Then you drive across town to the other dealer and do it all over again. Eventually one calls you and offers to give you the fair price that Truecar/KBB/Edmunds says you should be paying.

So, if you're buying a car in 10 minutes, you're just overpaying. I guess if you're ok with that, then fine. And I know you're still lying about the paperwork- it takes at least 10 minutes for them to print everything out and write it all up, even if the terms were certain. My wager is that it takes 45 minutes to buy a new car if you're overpaying or buying an advertised lease special with zero haggling, or many hours if you're trying to get a "fair" price as per the online resources.

Case in point- I'm literally trying to buy a new car right now. All of the online resources say that this particular model should be selling at 10% off MSRP. Dealership 1 gave me 7% off but only if I would take their terrible financing, Dealership 2 offered 5% off, and then I started engaging brokers who promised 10% off but haven't been able to line up the deal yet. On a $60k car, if I'm willing to pad the dealership's pocket by an extra ~2-3k (on top of the profit that they are already earning at 10% off MSRP), I can have that car today. But if I just want the average price being paid on the market according to the big 3 websites, I need to hustle. I've been working on buying this car for well over a month and I'm about to just give up and keep the current one for another year. It's dumb, especially in 2017 when there are so many better ways to do it.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,044 posts, read 13,779,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCresident2014 View Post
That's the entire point I was making. If you want dishwasher XYZ, you can go to the website for lowes, home depot, walmart, etc and see the price, then select where you purchase it from. The company that prices it best (or offers best service etc) wins. It's not MSRP $1,000, actual price somewhere between $500 and $1000 depending on which salesman you get and how hard you haggle.
I hate haggling. It is such a waste of time.
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:07 AM
 
1,715 posts, read 2,276,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
And guess what, if there were no dealers and the automakers ran distribution for the entire country you'd have LESS chance of finding that car you were looking for.
Tesla is doing that very successfully and look at their current stock price. As per your argument, people buying Teslas have less chance of finding the car they are looking for... Not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
Most people buying a Lexus want those options you passed on, and that's the most likely reason the dealers near you didn't have what you wanted. Do you honestly think dealers stock cars people don't want? They pay huge interest costs each month on their inventory so they are extremely motivated to stock the appropriate mix of cars & trucks.
You must be selling Domestic or Korean brands The options you refer to that people want are an upgrade for regular cars not for the luxury cars. One of the upgrades they wanted me to pay was heated windows and some sort of automatic rain detecting wipers.... Most of the things that REALLY matter come as default in luxury cars. Most of the luxury vehicles are leased by the dealer anyways. They keep moving them around if its stays on the lot for too long which isn't the case for many Lexus or Japanese cars anyways.

Plus most of the people care about their monthly payment and brand name when they come for vehicle purchase. By only stocking high end upgraded models dealers try to fool innocent buyers into thinking this is the only make an model which is available in market. Off course if buyers know there is a cheaper base model available without the dealer added BS upgrades, they would go for it but they don't stock them so the customer is forced to these highly marked upgrades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
I will say it makes no sense on why they told you that the shipping from west coast was your responsibility. That makes no sense to me....destination charges are the same for every like-model car regardless of where it ends up. They should have been able to order it and have it delivered to them, not the west coast. Something is off there...
They never said it was my responsibility. The final price after destination charges etc added up to give only a fraction of saving for me as compared to the upgraded model they already had in stock. Just like what you would do when a customer would ask you for a black colored car and all all of a sudden you won't have it in stock or you would have to check if another dealer has it and you would want additional $1500 to get it over.. makes sense to you buddy...??
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:03 PM
 
2,376 posts, read 2,894,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasTony View Post
Tesla is doing that very successfully and look at their current stock price. As per your argument, people buying Teslas have less chance of finding the car they are looking for... Not true.



You must be selling Domestic or Korean brands The options you refer to that people want are an upgrade for regular cars not for the luxury cars. One of the upgrades they wanted me to pay was heated windows and some sort of automatic rain detecting wipers.... Most of the things that REALLY matter come as default in luxury cars. Most of the luxury vehicles are leased by the dealer anyways. They keep moving them around if its stays on the lot for too long which isn't the case for many Lexus or Japanese cars anyways.

Plus most of the people care about their monthly payment and brand name when they come for vehicle purchase. By only stocking high end upgraded models dealers try to fool innocent buyers into thinking this is the only make an model which is available in market. Off course if buyers know there is a cheaper base model available without the dealer added BS upgrades, they would go for it but they don't stock them so the customer is forced to these highly marked upgrades.



They never said it was my responsibility. The final price after destination charges etc added up to give only a fraction of saving for me as compared to the upgraded model they already had in stock. Just like what you would do when a customer would ask you for a black colored car and all all of a sudden you won't have it in stock or you would have to check if another dealer has it and you would want additional $1500 to get it over.. makes sense to you buddy...??
Personally, I am more concerned with with net profit than share price but that's just me. Eventually, if you can't post a profit than an inflated share price will drop.

That being said, you can't compare Tesla, who makes a whopping 2 different models right now that are both extremely expensive, to mass market automakers when it comes to vehicle stock. Apples to oranges comparison there, but even so a customer can order a car any way they see fit so I never understood why people gripe so much about the "oh, that slimy dealer took my lunch money and made me buy a car I didn't want" attitude of some. As a consumer, you can order and buy any configuration you want that a manufacturer builds. The dealer has nothing to do with that aside from giving you a price. The manufacturer determines which models to build, which trim series to sell, what options/packages to offer, etc. All this information is easily found online or in the brochures at the dealer. Every manufacturer has a "build and price" section on their website so you can see EXACTLY how to build the car you want. If someone allows themselves to be "tricked" into buying something they don't want then I don't know how to help them. It takes a few minutes of research to avoid being "tricked" or "fooled."

In my opinion dealers have plenty of base/cheap models/trims on their lots. Too many, in fact. Seems to me on many models there are too many cheap trims and too many high-end trims and not much in between. That being said, you talk to any dealer these days and the higher-contented vehicles are slowly becoming the choice for many. People have higher expectations and things like heated seats, once a luxury option, are now being chosen more and more. Even rain sensing wipers is a very popular option and continues to sell more each year. (I have rain sensing wipers on both my cars - one is a basic domestic sedan and one is a luxury sports sedan.)

For me personally my wife gets middle-of-the-road models/options I tend to load my cars up. Last time I bought my wife a car the dealer near us didn't have exactly what I wanted so after 5 minutes on the manufacturer's website I found 3 of them within a few hours of us. Ended up buying one of those. It was not hard to do and if I didn't find those then I'd just order it....no big deal. I don't **** and moan about my local dealer not stocking it, I'm okay with the fact that I wanted something that they probably don't sell much of. Fine....

The part that's funny is the dealer will pay dearly for stocking cars that don't sell. The floorplan interest cost will eat into what little profit they have FAST and if not sold within 2-3 months then they may end up in the red on some cars. The longer it goes the more they lose. There is a very, very strong motivation to stock what a dealer thinks they can sell and they do the best they can with that. Why on earth would a dealer stock units that don't sell on purpose? That's just insane....

Lastly, I absolutely do not work for a Korean company. My experience is with American and European companies - cars and trucks.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:23 PM
 
2,376 posts, read 2,894,969 times
Reputation: 2253
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCresident2014 View Post
That's the entire point I was making. If you want dishwasher XYZ, you can go to the website for lowes, home depot, walmart, etc and see the price, then select where you purchase it from. The company that prices it best (or offers best service etc) wins. It's not MSRP $1,000, actual price somewhere between $500 and $1000 depending on which salesman you get and how hard you haggle.

I just don't understand how you think buying something from a store is anything like buying a car. When I buy an expensive TV, for example, I pick out a model I want, then I check the web for who has the best price, then I put in my credit card info and it shows up in a few days. Or buy it in person- go to walmart, stick it in the cart, swipe my card, get the "do you want a warranty?", say "no", sign, leave. Truly a matter of minutes, if not seconds.

Oh, and your "10 minute" car buying experience is complete bull. You walk in, give them the price, then they go and check with their manager, then they come back with a yes/no. If they say "yes" to your first price, congratulations- you just got ripped off; anytime a dealer takes your first price they are laughing at you after you leave because they got you to overpay. If/when they say "no", then you leave, wait for the salesman to get you on the lot/on the phone, give you yet another price that still isn't your price, then you truly leave. Then you drive across town to the other dealer and do it all over again. Eventually one calls you and offers to give you the fair price that Truecar/KBB/Edmunds says you should be paying.

So, if you're buying a car in 10 minutes, you're just overpaying. I guess if you're ok with that, then fine. And I know you're still lying about the paperwork- it takes at least 10 minutes for them to print everything out and write it all up, even if the terms were certain. My wager is that it takes 45 minutes to buy a new car if you're overpaying or buying an advertised lease special with zero haggling, or many hours if you're trying to get a "fair" price as per the online resources.

Case in point- I'm literally trying to buy a new car right now. All of the online resources say that this particular model should be selling at 10% off MSRP. Dealership 1 gave me 7% off but only if I would take their terrible financing, Dealership 2 offered 5% off, and then I started engaging brokers who promised 10% off but haven't been able to line up the deal yet. On a $60k car, if I'm willing to pad the dealership's pocket by an extra ~2-3k (on top of the profit that they are already earning at 10% off MSRP), I can have that car today. But if I just want the average price being paid on the market according to the big 3 websites, I need to hustle. I've been working on buying this car for well over a month and I'm about to just give up and keep the current one for another year. It's dumb, especially in 2017 when there are so many better ways to do it.
Honestly, if you are relying on Edmunds, TrueCar or whatever to help you then you are not going to get the best deal. Those sites are middle-men who are in the business to make money off you. Do you think they share this "information" out of charity? C'mon, now....when you walk in and start asking dealers for Edmunds pricing or whatever they LOVE you. Those prices are always higher than what decent negotiators can get. (TrueCar for instance charges a dealer $295 for their "lead." Guess what, that $295 is going to be added to the price of the car the dealer quotes you. That's just one example...) Those sites also focus on getting customers to buy near the mythical "invoice" price which means absolutely nothing.
The "invoice" price is not the dealer cost as that excludes things like holdbacks and incentives, both "public" incentives and hidden dealer incentives that customers won't know about.

You just need to simplify this in my opinion. My advice to people is alway this:
1) Identify the car you want to buy, maybe two at the most. Prices are so close together from one to the other these days a few pennies here or there usually doesn't sway people so identify the car you want and focus on that.

2) Goto the manufacturer website and "build and price" the car you want with the exact options you want. Print this out and get with two or three dealers near you and give it to them. Make sure you tell them you are getting quotes from other like-brand dealers as well. Explain that is what you want and have them price it. Getting at least 2 dealers trying to sell you the exact same car is the best way to negotiate. At that point it all comes down to price as they are both selling the exact same thing. If you want to get a price on a 2nd car from another brand then do the same with that one, too.

That works best for an ordered unit. For a stock unit then you just have them find something in-stock that's the closest in price to what you built. You can also look on their own website - cars with the same MSRP's will generally have the same content.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Huntsville
6,013 posts, read 6,588,794 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
If a true independent dealer becomes "certified" per the manufacturer guidelines then how is that different than a real dealer? It's basically the same thing and I would consider that "certified independent" a dealer as well. It is owned by someone other than the manufacturer.
For the last time.... an independent REPAIR FACILITY (repair facilities do not sell cars) is NOT a DEALER even if certified. They are certified to repair vehicles for the manufacturer. They are not certified to SELL cars for the manufacturer. There is a difference there.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:36 AM
 
4,833 posts, read 5,670,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
For the last time.... an independent REPAIR FACILITY (repair facilities do not sell cars) is NOT a DEALER even if certified. They are certified to repair vehicles for the manufacturer. They are not certified to SELL cars for the manufacturer. There is a difference there.
I agree. Dealer means someone is in the business of dealing cars, not services.

A used car shop is still a dealer. An independent repair shop is not a dealer.
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