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At some point the "points and carb" cars and trucks arent going to be out there because they will either be rusting in someones backyard beyond repair, in a scrap yard or in the beer can youre sipping out of. .
I wonder about that. My toy car (Jensen Healey), I am pretty sure there are more of them on the road now than there were ten years ago. They were only made in 1973 and 1974 with a few in 72 and 75 but not enough to count.
Out of all the techs I've talked to on this site, you're the one that shares my attitude and POV the most. You haven't bought into this whole "everything's better with a computer attached" mentality, and neither will I. I especially loved all the stuff you posted on my flat rate thread several months back. We need more techs like you, keep up the good work sir!
As I've pointed out before, they don't want techs anymore, they just want parts changers who can plug in a computer, pull a code and replace the part. I miss when repairing a car took skills and know how, which it still does, but it's moving towards a "Pull a code, code says replace part x, replace part x". And it makes me so sad to see that. Just as new cars have taken all the skill out of driving (cars that park themselves, blind spot monitoring, park sense, cameras on every side of the vehicle, etc.) they want to take all the skill out of fixing cars as well. And I see that as a way to lower wages and make it so any swinging dick off the street can fix cars.
I'm surprised I didn't hear from SunSpirit on this one? While we didn't exactly see eye to eye on things, I also enjoyed having his POV on things and found his advice very helpful. Though I feel that we will disagree on this topic.
Basically, you're complaining because computers/automation are making you obsolete. And NY_refugee87's assertion that troubleshooting a carb is easier than troubleshooting fuel injection is simply preposterous. I can download a new fuel map into the PCM far more quickly than you can change jets on a carb. Furthermore, you're going to need a computer of sorts (wideband O2 sensor and supporting software) to diagnose a jetting issue with a carb anyway. Seriously, there are a few (very few) reasons someone may prefer working on older vehicles - troubleshooting carb/jetting problems is not one of them. I have an old truck with a carb and getting the jetting right is an ongoing chore. Surely you realize that temperature, elevation, etc., affect jetting and drivability? Well, through the wonders of closed-loop FI, drivers of modern cars need not worry about such things.
Really, this discussion is ridiculous. I get that people like old cars for nostalgic reasons - and that's OK. However, convoluted logic like saying relics like carbs are easier to work with than modern FI systems is breathtakingly dumb. This is going to sound harsh, but techs like you and NY_refugee87 are precisely why I won't take any of my vehicles to "professional" mechanics. As this thread has proven, there are still a bunch of dinosaurs out there turning wrenches.
I could do a brake job on an older car in less than an hour (not counting having the rotors turned). Now sometimes it takes me all day depending on the car. Of course you no longer have rotors turned, you just throw them away and buy new ones. Maybe there are people who can do a brake job on a modern car in under an hour (that would be a surprise).
This is one thing I find is easier nowadays with all around disc brakes (granted drum in hat style parking brake systems can be a PITA, but with integrated calipers I find it very easy). I was never good at adjusting drum brakes, so I ended up buying a drum resetting gauge to take the guesswork out of it. Would much rather change disc brakes than mess with drum brakes, though with the brake resetting gauge it's so much better, as that was the one part I could never seem to get right.
1. I can download a new fuel map into the PCM far more quickly than you can change jets on a carb.
2. Furthermore, you're going to need a computer of sorts (wideband O2 sensor and supporting software) to diagnose a jetting issue with a carb anyway.
3. Seriously, there are a few (very few) reasons someone may prefer working on older vehicles - troubleshooting carb/jetting problems is not one of them.
1. But can you rebuild a computer fuel mix module that goes bad as fast as I can rebuild a carburetor? Even if you can it is not easier, because you have to be a computer technician and have special tools and software.
2. a whaaat? I have rebuilt and properly jetted about 30 carburetors (ojk some of them were the same carb) and I have never heard of a wideband O2 sensor. The most high tech thing I have had to use is a "color tune" when you need to tune dual carbs to each other.
3. Carb work is not my favorite, but I would prefer that to trying to open up a malfunctioning computer module and trying to repair it. Maybe it is possible to see a failed connection and re-solder it or something, but from what I have seen, they are all printed circuits. I have no idea how one would even try to repair that.
However it is still unfathomable that anyone would assert the new cramped inaccessible, hyper technical cars with all their oddball (cheap and usually not reusabale) fasteners are easier to work on than t a simple mechanical engine. As someone pointed out, the new way is to employ parts changes, that aggravates me so much I keep changing mechanics looking for someone who actual knows enough to figure out what is wrong rather than replacing the most likely culprit according to a computer read out and then when that does not solve the problem, move on to the next most likely culprit. I had one mechanic shop charge me $150 - $200 each for a series of three different attempts at replacing parts based on a computer read out. Then I found an old dinosaur mechanic who actually looked at it and figured out there was a loose wire and fixed it without charge. Then the first guy could not understand why I was mad. He said they did exactly what the book said to do.
As someone pointed out, the new way is to employ parts changes, that aggravates me so much I keep changing mechanics looking for someone who actual knows enough to figure out what is wrong rather than replacing the most likely culprit according to a computer read out and then when that does not solve the problem, move on to the next most likely culprit. I had one mechanic shop charge me $150 - $200 each for a series of three different attempts at replacing parts based on a computer read out.
Worked with quite a few guys like this in my time at the dealership. Fresh out of UTI, UNOH, Wyotech, wherever who couldn't fix a sandwich let alone a car. One guy in particular the parts guys nicknamed "kitchen sink" because every RO he wrote literally called every part of the system. Noise in the front end, he called ball joints, tie rods, struts, everything on the front end in order to fix it. Check engine light, go on a wild goose change making it out to be this big, complex problem when all it was was a blown fuse, broken wire, etc. These guys forgot the basics and every problem was a huge ordeal that required all the diagnostic tools and tests you could think of.
"Kitchen Sink" was given a Ram 2500 and had to install a lift kit, new tires, etc. Then it came back shortly after someone bought it, complaining of a noise in the front end. He went on about 10 different test drives trying different things to get the noise to go away, but nothing worked. After I had clocked out for the day and was walking out of the shop, he was still messing with this truck. He asked me to have a look and see if could find where it's coming from. He got in and started turning the wheel all the way in each direction, and it didn't take me long to see that he'd installed one of the bolts for the dual steering stabilizers the wrong way and it was rubbing on the toe bar whenever you turned the wheel. A problem he spent literally the entire day on was solved by me in less than a minute ON MY WAY OUT THE DOOR!!! But because a computer couldn't tell him this, he had no clue where to even begin.
Another guy I worked with had a new Ram 1500 with less than 5k on it that came in for a warranty squeak in the front end. He him-hawed around and kept asking what to do, so I went over and shook the truck while he tried finding the source of the noise, but neither one of us could find it. My advice was to start taking parts off one at a time until the squeak went away, but he him-hawed around for awhile longer before the service manager got on him and told him the same thing I did. Turned out to be a body mount in the front had gotten water in it and corroded so it squeaked when going over bumps.
1. But can you rebuild a computer fuel mix module that goes bad as fast as I can rebuild a carburetor? Even if you can it is not easier, because you have to be a computer technician and have special tools and software.
2. a whaaat? I have rebuilt and properly jetted about 30 carburetors (ojk some of them were the same carb) and I have never heard of a wideband O2 sensor. The most high tech thing I have had to use is a "color tune" when you need to tune dual carbs to each other.
3. Carb work is not my favorite, but I would prefer that to trying to open up a malfunctioning computer module and trying to repair it. Maybe it is possible to see a failed connection and re-solder it or something, but from what I have seen, they are all printed circuits. I have no idea how one would even try to repair that.
However it is still unfathomable that anyone would assert the new cramped inaccessible, hyper technical cars with all their oddball (cheap and usually not reusabale) fasteners are easier to work on than t a simple mechanical engine. As someone pointed out, the new way is to employ parts changes, that aggravates me so much I keep changing mechanics looking for someone who actual knows enough to figure out what is wrong rather than replacing the most likely culprit according to a computer read out and then when that does not solve the problem, move on to the next most likely culprit. I had one mechanic shop charge me $150 - $200 each for a series of three different attempts at replacing parts based on a computer read out. Then I found an old dinosaur mechanic who actually looked at it and figured out there was a loose wire and fixed it without charge. Then the first guy could not understand why I was mad. He said they did exactly what the book said to do.
You don't fix a PCM, you replace it or reprogram it.
Even in my POS older cars that left me stranded from everything from water pumps to transmissions, the PCM was the only thing that actually worked. I don't know how hard they are to change or how much they cost because they never go bad. The fact that people are even good at fixing carbs is a testament to how much they suck in the first place.
I've repaired a door module's relay using a soldering iron and two screws. I knew how to fix it because I have internet access.
Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean it's hard to do. It just means you haven't taken an interest in learning it.
Which is why I see old Chevy trucks like mine driving on the road literally every time I'm out on the road. (And I live in the rust belt) Yet those trucks haven't been made in 30 years (stopped making them in 1987)? By your logic, they should all be "rusting in someones backyard beyond repair". I can't think of another 30 year old vehicle I see on such a regular basis.
Dont twist my words to serve your cause. I didn't say that, and you know it.
I wonder about that. My toy car (Jensen Healey), I am pretty sure there are more of them on the road now than there were ten years ago. They were only made in 1973 and 1974 with a few in 72 and 75 but not enough to count.
...I can download a new fuel map into the PCM far more quickly than you can change jets on a carb. Furthermore, you're going to need a computer of sorts (wideband O2 sensor and supporting software) to diagnose a jetting issue with a carb anyway.
Lots of seasoned amateur mechanics wouldn't even know what "PCM" stands for. And they probably think that a "fuel map" is a folded large sheet of paper with symbols denoting neighborhood gas stations. But using smell, hearing, sight and touch (hopefully not taste), they can do the vast majority of what a wide-band oxygen sensor could do - at lower cost, and higher speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourWakeUpCall
This is going to sound harsh, but techs like you and NY_refugee87 are precisely why I won't take any of my vehicles to "professional" mechanics. As this thread has proven, there are still a bunch of dinosaurs out there turning wrenches.
I try to avoid taking my cars to professional mechanics, as a point of pride. But I enjoy consulting with mechanics, be they software-jockies fresh out of tech school, or grizzled veterans who worked on B-17s.
Lots of seasoned amateur mechanics wouldn't even know what "PCM" stands for. And they probably think that a "fuel map" is a folded large sheet of paper with symbols denoting neighborhood gas stations. But using smell, hearing, sight and touch (hopefully not taste), they can do the vast majority of what a wide-band oxygen sensor could do - at lower cost, and higher speed.
I try to avoid taking my cars to professional mechanics, as a point of pride. But I enjoy consulting with mechanics, be they software-jockies fresh out of tech school, or grizzled veterans who worked on B-17s.
PCMs have been part of cars for almost 40 years.
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