Labor Shift In Auto Repair Industry (F150, vehicle, joint, German)

[jimmy12345678]

Having worked in a Chrysler dealership for over 3 years, I've made some observations as to how they work and it's really unsettling to me.

First of all, they would hire an hourly lube tech at $9 or $10 an hour and load them down with all the "gravy" work (brakes, fluid flushes, mud flaps, etc.) and have them scrambling around all day sucking up all the gravy basically. They basically take some kid who knows nothing off the street, pay him peanuts and give him all the easy jobs.

That left the higher certified guys with warranty work, water and air leaks, and the hard diagnostics that the more inexperienced guys couldn't do. It basically left them with all the crap work while the hourly guy did all the easy stuff. One of my fellow techs (a Level 3 Chrysler Master Tech) said it best "The more you know in a dealership, the less you make". And I've found it to be true.

As I said the highest level guy gets saddled with the hard to find problems that no one else can figure out (which pays crap doing it under warranty) while the guys that were only hired to change oil, sweep the floors, etc are taking all the gravy work, and the shop gets to pocket the extra income from that, as they are only paying that tech by the hour instead of flat rate.

IMO, a dealership is the worst place a tech can go if they really want to make good money. Sure, if all you know how to do is hang brakes, change tires and do fluid services all day you might make an okay living, but if you aspire to be a Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, VW or whatever Master Tech, you are in for a rude awakening. Here comes all the warranty work, recalls, intermittent problems and difficult stuff that doesn't pay worth a crap. I'd say if you aspire to be the top dog in this industry you would be much better off in an independent shop, where they don't have to deal with warranty BS. IMO most warranty times are next to impossible to match (let alone beat) and are designed to simply cut costs for the manufacturer, not to pay the tech fairly.

I've made the observation before that this industry is moving towards getting rid of techs and making everyone glorified parts changers (plug in scan tool, code for x part, replace x part), all as a way to lower the wages of people who fix cars. Couple that with them hiring some chump with minimum tools to change oil, hang brakes and do the easy jobs for minimum wage and you can start to see my point. Lower the wages for your employees, charge the customers more and pocket the profit.

Have any of you other techs/shop employees seen this before?

[Hemlock140]

That explains a lot, as far as our experience with Chrysler dealership service. Fortunately, not all dealers operate that way. With my business I did a lot of work with several dealers in the area, where all but the car wash guys were ASE certified, and they advertised that. Most were upscale models, such as Mercedes and Audi, but one is a Ford dealer. ASE certification still won't make people rich, topping out at about $36/hr in our area. The best pay is the factory trained mechanics that went overseas to learn at the source.

[jimmy12345678]

Originally Posted by Hemlock140

ASE certification still won't make people rich, topping out at about $36/hr in our area. The best pay is the factory trained mechanics that went overseas to learn at the source.

In my area at least (northern WV) the top techs at the dealership I was at made about $20 an hour (flat rate). Also, you can have as high of an hourly rate as you want, but if you're flat rate and not getting any hours (or losing your butt on a warranty job) it doesn't really matter.

I agree that ASE's are a step in the right direction, but they don't prove that you know anything or that you can actually turn a wrench, just that you have automotive knowledge IN YOUR HEAD (much different than being able to apply it) and you're good at taking test. But taking the time to get them at least shows that you're serious about this biz.

[NY_refugee87]

Yup.

That's why I do not touch anything smaller than a super duty.
You couldn't pay me enough to rip my arms to pieces daily, taking a raping on confined FWD engine bays.
When I lived in the rusty crusty state of NY where a 3-5 year old car/truck/suv mimics the rust and rot and galvanic corrosion of a 30 year old swamp abandoned vehicle... I made my choice.

I watched guys who were 20-40 year SR Masters put in 50 60 hour work weeks for 28-42 hours.
I had managers come begging me to expand into gas and car side of the shop. Nope.

Warranty and book doesn't compensate for fighting, doesn't compensate for deep cuts, nor the frustration.
I'll take F150s, Lincoln Air Suspension concerns, but you will not get me to do a PTU, or a DPS6 clutch or a 3.5/3.7 water pump. Recently we've been bombarded with 2.7 ecojunks blowing head gaskets. They went lax on the diesels and gave me a couple to do.

If the front subframe has to come down to do something as remedial as a water pump... nope. Not doing it.

If I need more room. Cab bolts out, vacuum down the a/c system while the cooling system (s) are draining, and pluck the steering shaft, harnesses, parking brake cable, trans and transfer case linkages, and up with the cab.

I'd like to meet the speed ninjas that perform these labor ops in the time that's posted. On a 3 year old northeast rusty crusty vehicle. That have to perform other tasks plus, being yanked off in the middle of the job to go diag a waiter, perform a NYSI, or any of the other daily nonsense in the shop.

And God forbid a UTI kid gets hired on... ohhh... tech school grads are the worst. They never touched a live vehicle. They've never had the pleasure of dealing with a steel hub pressed into an aluminum knuckle and the galvanic corrosion. They know it all and usually misdiagnose it, load up the parts gun and go on a spree. Although some of the Lube Boobs when they're standing around, and show a genuine interest, they'll make great techs but keep getting passed up for the tech school grad because the stealer ship is too cheap to send them for training.

Ford cut ASE certs out. And good for them for doing it and here's why.
All an ASE test shows, is you can pass a test. I'd rather ASE be hands on. None of that Tech A says Tech B says both are right both are wrong. Reason being this isn't a black or white trade. Always and never are 2 words you don't use. It's more of a statistical thing, failure based on commonality and rates of component/system failures. It's never always this and it's always never that. No don't ever say never or always. I've seen issues that would give 30 year vets a run for their money, pinpoint tests send them in the wrong direction time and time again.

This 6.7 powerstroke is a prime example. I tell field service engineers and ford holiness all of the time to publish a TSB or SSM to diagnose the EGR systems properly without sending the tech off 12 different directions and 4 other sub systems.
If you have an EGR flow/temp code it isn't as simple as just replace the cooler element. Look closely at the EGR valve. Look closely at the BYPASS! 9 times out of 10 if it goes from a P2457 then to a P1468 it's the bypass and EGR that needs replacing.

Of course ford will want to kick the claim. I give them a "unrelated" pinpoint test where I manipulate the VGT and waste gate, MAP pressure MAF flow, manipulate the Bypass and valve, monitor temperatures and even show them this truck isn't building boost like it should followed with visual inspection of the EGR valve and bypass... the bypass door will either not be fully seated due to carbon, or not fully seated due to it being distorted/warped, EGR valve not fully seated due to coking or damage and use that as the causal part since excessive idle isn't considered non warranty...

(Awaits someone to tell me how their brother in law idles big rigs with no emissions system and that it's perfectly fine to idle a new diesel for extended periods of time)

That's how I see veteran techs get a beating. Come backs.
I don't have any and I know how to fight with the management and with the manufacturer to get stuff covered.
See a guy replace the cooler only per the TSB for that code. Then come back lacks power, check engine light back on. Replace the EGR valve. Ship it. Comes back still the same ordeal... Bypass.

At least ford listened to me on the 6.4 when I told them their common cause for a DPF overload code was due to connector C110 being broken and it usually occurred to trucks that either had the cab off or that connector undone to do a horizontal EGR cooler or exhaust manifold... that lock tab used to break due to being brittle from heat, and if it was zip tied back together or just carelessly forced back together... well road salt coming up off the left front tire whips up and works it's way into the connector and makes the wires going to the DPF pressure sensor corrode and give erroneous readings due to excessive resistance. Lots of guys were replacing DPFs, DPF pressure sensors and missing that one completely... me I was always getting someone else's come backs or another shop did this and didn't fix it I am not going back there.

I raised fix it right first time scores everywhere I worked. I lowered warranty claims on certain things and raised them elsewhere. I don't work on them.
I fix them.

But you're absolutely right. The more you know, the less you make. Stick to being a specialist. Don't be a good in all category guy. Be the specialist and you become immune to the politics and immune to the beatings on warranty.

I refused to get transmission certified at first, because I refused to touch front wheel drive transmissions. Made a deal with the manager at that dealership, you get a quick lane kid to yank the transmission I'll overhaul it or I won't touch a single one. Want to puff your chest and can me over it... remember. I've got all these customers who I call and relay information to because your writers are too busy trying to get in the office chick's pants or too busy worrying about up selling 2k in flushes filters tires and alignments. Or tripping over 100 dollar bills to pick up pennies...

Lose me, you lose all of the cash pay diesels that come in dropping 7k or more like it's nothing without complaining or without harassing the service writers... Box comes with wheels... if you're excellent at one thing and hit them with hard facts, they bow to you. Me... I had over 30 customers who followed me from one dealership I worked at for 5 years to one that was for some of them, 65-80 miles away. Because I fix em.

When I moved to Florida my boss tried to sneak everything under the sun. He and the shop foreman got a wake up call. Come down to my bay putting car ROs on my box while I'm out road testing something or pull something in my bays... I pull it right back out and go grab the next truck to work on. Leave the RO and key on the foreman's desk with a note. I don't touch cars.

Wants me to pull a dash out of a Mustang to find an electrical problem since I've had 4 or 5 trucks that had water intrusion wipe out the GEM modules due to leaky windshields, or due to rust around a cab marker light (north east truck brought down to Florida) or from fixing the trucks that had shorts due to mud bogging etc. Nope sorry. Doesn't say Super duty not touching it. Especially yanking a dash. Doesn't pay near what it'd take me to do without destroying something in the process or to deal with the whole "ever since you _____ I have a squeak a rattle etc" nope. Not worth it.

Electrical. Diesel performance. Transmission.
Don't bother me with brakes. Don't bother me with tires. Don't bother me with alignments.

From building lifted trucks at a dealership up in NY I turned the service Dept down here around. They would turn away all the daddy's money trucks that had "death wobble" that's an easy fix. Showed the quick lane kids how to fix them.

If the tie rods, the drag link ends, ball joints, and the 5th ball joint (this is the upside down track bar ball joint) are good and tight with no slop loaded and Un loaded, the steering stabilizer isn't spanked and leaking, throw it on the alignment rack.
Big wide tires with an increased scrub radius/contact patch need to be towed in.
Go just outside of the red on the negative side. What's happening is, as you drive down the road, those big wide tires are peeling back and fighting themselves at highway speeds. Bring them in more than factory spec, problem solved.

Any truck I've built you can do 80mph+ with 35-44 x 12.50+ wide and have absolutely no death wobble.
And if it comes in with a complaint of dog tracking after a lift kit has been installed... someone missed shim and u bolt day...

Make yourself an asset you don't get shafted. Learn how to argue and throw the managers being inept back in their face you won't get shafted eithet.
It's he who hires people. Not you. It's not your fault he has a bunch of dummies. It's not your fault he wants to run a skeleton crew. It's not your fault a writer can't get important details from a customer, and is afraid to make more than 2 calls...
Most of the problems in a shop isn't just the labor times buddy, most times its a mechanically inept business grad who's the manager worried about picking up pennies as he trips over 100 dollar bills. Service writers doing horrible jobs at obtaining information. And relaying details to you, the worst being diagnosed behind the desk as if the writer knows more than you... I had dealt with that alot.

Turn Signal inoperable after towing a trailer... here it's a buddy of mines truck! Throw a multi function switch in it! No. I already ordered it a week ago don't argue with me. No your wrong. Get his trailer here. I bet he has a short in the trailer that popped the fuse. No don't do that, that's not a warranty repair! Don't listen to me...
Best was when ford had come out with their factory trailer brakes and they not work with electric over hydraulic trailers. But the truck has a fault... nope... it's your trailer buddy. Not compatible. Need a trailer with pure electric trailer brakes...

I actually got 2 writers and 1 manager chitcanned for doing that stuff. WARRANFREE fraud

[jimmy12345678]

Worked with a "kid" (he was actually older than me) that went to UTI and he was a nightmare. Parts guys started calling him "the kitchen sink" because every RO he brought them called every part of every system. Noise in the front end? Called inner and outer tie rods, upper and lower ball joints, struts, sway bar links and bushings, etc. Misfire code? Plugs, wires, injectors, coil packs, etc. This guy couldn't fix a car right if his life depended on it, but he graduated from one of these tech programs with an over inflated ego and thought he knew everything, was cocky as all hell.

Well it didn't take long before he was known as the "come back kid", because everything he touched came back. It got to the point where service writers wouldn't assign him work because they knew he couldn't do fix it right (or at all). Ended up quitting after a little less than a year at my former dealership, and was so glad to see him go (got really sick of fixing his comebacks and diagnosing things for him). He was the type of guy that would hook up all the test equipment, check every sensor and make everything out to be this big, complex problem when lots of times it was something as simple as a blown fuse, bad battery connection or some other basic problem.


I also love "service managers" who've never turned a wrench in their life, couldn't tell you the difference between a ball joint and a tie rod, who only think in terms of numbers without any real world experience. Always wondered how they got into management positions with their utter lack of knowledge as to how auto repair really works. They're a know it all that really knows nothing. Nope, get back behind the desk pushing pencils and playing on your phone, where you belong, and let me fix cars.

Also ran into many "service writers" that were just pretty women who were nothing more than door greeters. Didn't know the first thing about cars or selling work, they were just hired based on their looks. Dealt with many bad service writers, both men and woman, good ones are VERY hard to find.

[NY_refugee87]

Originally Posted by jimmy12345678

In my area at least (northern WV) the top techs at the dealership I was at made about $20 an hour (flat rate). Also, you can have as high of an hourly rate as you want, but if you're flat rate and not getting any hours (or losing your butt on a warranty job) it doesn't really matter.

I agree that ASE's are a step in the right direction, but they don't prove that you know anything or that you can actually turn a wrench, just that you have automotive knowledge IN YOUR HEAD (much different than being able to apply it) and you're good at taking test. But taking the time to get them at least shows that you're serious about this biz.

Canada has the right idea on automotive repair. You carry a license. Eliminates the hacks. I believe it is referred to as a redstamp. I'm not opposed to it. And I'm most certainly not a fan of ASEs. They prove nothing. Because my expirience often contradict what tech A and tech B claim. And when it came to interpreting scan tool data, they left out other important PIDS I'd have pulled up. Remember, Always and Never are 2 words you delete from your vocabulary. Matter of fact funny story, I saved a guy from buying a transmission he never needed.

Guy was in his late 60s, had a 12 Ecoboost F150, moved to Florida from Massachusetts for retirement. Truck had 32k on it. Complained about it shuddering on the highway/hunting for gears. The Trans expert 3 bays over from me gets it. And left the RO at my box (we share the same computer for electronic flag sheet) I thought it was something the foreman left, so I run the vin on oasis to see if it ever had spark plugs done under WARRANFREE or if it ever had the intercooler done under WARRANFREE those 2 were common for shudders and hunting for gears... Never had been touched under warranty.
Plugs were common to crack. Intercooler worked too good for the 3.5 F150. Why does that matter? Because you'd get that vehicle in a humid climate, that air would cool and condensation would collect in the Intercooler and when you step on it, it would boost and get water in the cylinders and shudder/skip sometimes throw a P0300 sometimes not flag any codes at all and you'd have to find in the OBD mode 6 data the misfire counts per cylinder. That's how I'd find cracked plugs, and found the engines ingesting water. When these things came out the car shop guys wouldn't touch ecoboohoo anything, because us diesel guys played with turbos.

I go to get the truck, dude has it up in the air talking how he's going to get a tranny for it. nope. Argued with him, then went straight to the service manager about it. We waited for the tranny expert to calm down and walked over to his Bay asked him to take the Intercooler out for chits and giggles, what do you know. About a quart of water ran out of it! Order the revised intercooler. Problem fixed.

ASEs are a joke. Anyone can pass them, heck my parts guy has ASEs for engine performance and engine repair as well as for machinist. Never turned a wrench a day in his life, nor milled a cylinder head, honed a bore, or line honed the mains...

Why does he have them because that's what the previous place he worked at required. He needed 4 ASEs, any ASE. He had an uncle who ran a machine shop/boat repair facility and he helped the guy to pass what he deemed easy.

[NY_refugee87]

Hopefully... the younger guys avoid this trade like the plague. Maybe then, when all the vet techs in their 50s and 60s retire, and the industry is inundated with no experienced guys, and the ones who are experienced gather in the rust belt and put their foot down the manufacturers due away with flat rate, or revise their times. I feel for guys back in the north east... down here there's no rust. Tie rods turn with a little spritz of penetrating oil. Back home. Better be ready to sell anything and everything that has threads exposed to the elements. People rarely wash road salt off in the winter...

(Awaits the I ALWAYS WASH MY CAR/TRUCK posts)

Yeah. I'm sure you also crawl under it and make sure the tie rod sleeves are shiny and new too

I never understood how ford justified the cab pulling revised time on the 6.4s
Move to Florida now I know why. Can imagine the same for Texas Arizona Nevada California all of the dry states with no road salt those diesel guys were making bank on those trucks! Brand new was the only time we could meet the time to yank the cab. Give them a couple years in the elements... especially if they plow snow or used to sand salt and plow. Forget it. Break out the mig welder and weld those cage nuts and run that impact gun full tilt or you're going to be limping come pay day.

[jimmy12345678]

Originally Posted by NY_refugee87

Hopefully... the younger guys avoid this trade like the plague. Maybe then, when all the vet techs in their 50s and 60s retire, and the industry is inundated with no experienced guys, and the ones who are experienced gather in the rust belt and put their foot down the manufacturers due away with flat rate, or revise their times.

I agree that it has to be the techs that force the change in this industry. As long as the dealerships can find suckers to chase the flat rate carrot it's not going to go away anytime soon. I want to see dealerships scrambling to find competent techs to work for them, then and only then will wages go up and serious changes will occur. They will either have to adapt to survive or be forced out of business because no one will work for them (or there's not enough competent people out there for them to hire.) They need to know that without competent techs they have no business to run (i.e. they need US more than we need THEM).

But I think techs also need to hold up their end of the bargain too, because there's lots of "techs" out there that can't fix a sandwich, let alone a car. If you've got the knowledge and skillset in this biz, you should have no trouble finding A job, a GOOD job is a whole different ball game. Positive changes will not happen until dealerships and shops are FORCED to make them.

[sunsprit]

jimmy wrote: "Having worked in a Chrysler dealership for over 3 years, I've made some observations as to how they work and it's really unsettling to me."

all I can say is "Welcome to the Automotive Repair Business".

you present a false premise in suggesting that the problems you observe ... and the other posters here ... are "NEW" to the industry.

I've seen all of this dating back to the 1960's. Watched UTI (or comparable) inflated ego know-nothings come and go from shop to shop (even had one of their "top graduate" Snap-On toolbox award winner come to my shop and quit the first morning because he couldn't follow directions on how to change engine oil on a 6.9 'benz ... but he wanted to be overhauling engines from day one which wasn't going to happen with his hand skills and attention to details). Watched ASE certificates hang on a wall that could never fix a car properly.

The days of the all-around "grease monkey" and shop practices as described in some very fine publications (such as Automotive Engineering published by ATS back in 1921, a lovely 6-volume set that covered every car in the marketplace) died out by the late 1940's era cars. Even in the 1950's, it paid to be a specialist to deal with the shop business practices, service writers, dealer accountants, etc..

My entree into the biz in the 1960's was to specialize in electrical ... and soon, electronics ... side of the engine performance and systems in the cars. Basically, I became indispensable to the shop management in an area that few mechanics dared to tread ... and capitalized on my skills and experience by opening up my own shop where I was referred a whole bunch of work by the dealers and independent shops that couldn't do the work, or a "word of mouth" reputation in the local marketplace. I later got into engine building on import cars as that marketplace developed because I had the time and interest to do so (Brit, Italian, and German cars were my retirement program). There was lots of work I referred on ... brakes, suspension, automatic transmissions, diffs, and so forth. It was only in later years when I had employees that could do such work that I did this in my own shop as a "one-stop" shop for my customers. But personally, I still specialized in the electrical/electronics and engine performance areas of the biz. It was good for a 6-figure income when that was "real money" in the biz.

PS: if you think it's bad in the automotive industry, take a look at the boating industry. I'm building a new shop right now that will be a boating electrical and outboard service facility. Not interested in employees again, this will be my "retirement" project. Work to be done by appointment only with an outlook of professional diagnostics and repair. Mrs Sun thinks I'm opening the lid on pandora's box ... with more work than I can reasonably want to do. We'll see. My plan is 30-40 hr workweeks in a nicely equipped shop where I can spend my winter hours when my farming demands are minimal and limited summertime hours during boating season. I've watched the work product from my area competitors and if you think that the hourly lube tech guys are pathetic, they're stellar techs compared to what I see going on at the boat shops in my region.

[jimmy12345678]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

jimmy wrote: "Having worked in a Chrysler dealership for over 3 years, I've made some observations as to how they work and it's really unsettling to me."

all I can say is "Welcome to the Automotive Repair Business".

you present a false premise in suggesting that the problems you observe ... and the other posters here ... are "NEW" to the industry.

I've seen all of this dating back to the 1960's. Watched UTI (or comparable) inflated ego know-nothings come and go from shop to shop (even had one of their "top graduate" Snap-On toolbox award winner come to my shop and quit the first morning because he couldn't follow directions on how to change engine oil on a 6.9 'benz ... but he wanted to be overhauling engines from day one which wasn't going to happen with his hand skills and attention to details). Watched ASE certificates hang on a wall that could never fix a car properly.

The days of the all-around "grease monkey" and shop practices as described in some very fine publications (such as Automotive Engineering published by ATS back in 1921, a lovely 6-volume set that covered every car in the marketplace) died out by the late 1940's era cars. Even in the 1950's, it paid to be a specialist to deal with the shop business practices, service writers, dealer accountants, etc..

My entree into the biz in the 1960's was to specialize in electrical ... and soon, electronics ... side of the engine performance and systems in the cars. Basically, I became indispensable to the shop management in an area that few mechanics dared to tread ... and capitalized on my skills and experience by opening up my own shop where I was referred a whole bunch of work by the dealers and independent shops that couldn't do the work, or a "word of mouth" reputation in the local marketplace. I later got into engine building on import cars as that marketplace developed because I had the time and interest to do so (Brit, Italian, and German cars were my retirement program). There was lots of work I referred on ... brakes, suspension, automatic transmissions, diffs, and so forth. It was only in later years when I had employees that could do such work that I did this in my own shop as a "one-stop" shop for my customers. But personally, I still specialized in the electrical/electronics and engine performance areas of the biz. It was good for a 6-figure income when that was "real money" in the biz.

PS: if you think it's bad in the automotive industry, take a look at the boating industry. I'm building a new shop right now that will be a boating electrical and outboard service facility. Not interested in employees again, this will be my "retirement" project. Work to be done by appointment only with an outlook of professional diagnostics and repair. Mrs Sun thinks I'm opening the lid on pandora's box ... with more work than I can reasonably want to do. We'll see. I've watched the work product from my area competitors and if you think that the hourly lube tech guys are pathetic, they're stellar techs compared to what I see going on at the boat shops in my region.

Glad to hear from you Sunsprit. Back when you posted in my thread on flat rate a lot of what you said really struck a chord with me and reinvigorated my enthusiasm for the auto industry. As you pointed out then, I was simply in the wrong shop for my work ethic and personality, and since leaving that job I'm SO much happier and look forward to getting up and fixing cars everyday. Nothing brings me greater joy than to take something that's broken and make it work again!