What does "car value" mean? And how much do I offer? (insurance, vehicle)
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2016 Toyota Sienna XLE FWD 8-passenger 6A false demo with 1,910 miles for sale
MSRP: $37,837
Dealer took the $3,500 rebate the factory offered last year and applied it to car
Still considered new. Never been titled or put into use, not even as a demo.
Dealership is small and has only about one or two salesman, one manager, one or two techs, one detail guy, and one service receptionist. Maybe a parts guy.
Non-commissioned salesmen who go by cars sold to determine salary.
The former sales manager used it for 1,900 miles or 4 trips to take his autistic son to a specialty hospital 4 hours away.
Corporate forced this car on them. They never wanted the car. No one drives FWD in our snowy, mountainous area. It has been sitting since February 2016. They were thinking of making this a courtesy shuttle since they knew no one would buy it.
Minor unreported damage from when the former manager drove it into a snow bank which is a blemish on front bumper and a 1.5" sliver of paint has come off. He did not report this to them and I discovered it yesterday.
There was some kind of parking lot accident/damage too which necessitated them to replace the wiper and cowl for $1,000. Sales rep showed me the service records.
I am their only customer. If I do not buy it, they will make it into a courtesy shuttle for this summer only.
The dealer said the car would be sold for a loss and it needs to go. They told me the could throw in a free extended warranty to make this deal happen (over a $3,000 value), repair the paint damage on the bumper or even give me a new bumper. Free Resistall too (over $1,000 value). Free key and wheel insurance if needed ($895 value). Free accessories. Free service. Whatever I want I can have to make this deal happen.
It needed two new batteries in January and in December of 2017, apparently from sitting.
Label on car said this car was NOT eligible for the factory 36,000 warranty. Sales rep denies that and said they put it there on purpose to trick the customers into buying an extended warranty instead.
Service record said this car was NOT eligible for free ToyotaCare (free maintenance) for the first two years.
All together they have spent $1,500 on service to the car which was not paid by the factory (2 nitrogen tire services, the wipers/cowl above, and 2 new batteries). They tried to negotiate with this, but I told them not my fault the car was sitting for so long or there was cowl damage in the parking lot.
Test drove it for 5 miles and it was fine.
Questions:
1. Trying to determine a price to offer on this car. I've taken off depreciation and miles driven. Should I knock off the dealer hold back and two other secret factory-to-dealer rebates they get at closing which the sale rep showed me (abut $1,350 total)? Do I take extra cash off my offer instead of taking the free extended warranty, free Resistall, etc.?
We are at more than $12,000 off the MSRP now, but I want to go further. The car dealership does not make the decision whether to accept the offer though. Only the corporate headquarters can. They will be more likely to accept by offer at the end of the month (now until 1/31) to make quota.
2. What does car "value" mean? All these websites are giving me a range of $24,00 to $31,000. Is "value" what the customer pays? Is it the MSRP? Is the customer allowed to pay below value? Can the dealer list it above value?
3. The General Manager (who doubles as the Finance Manager) said Toyotas do NOT depreciate, only cars like Ford and Hyundai. Is this true? But my sales rep said Toyotas do depreciate. And the Honda dealer whom I saw the other day said Toyotas do depreciate, but not as much as other cars; and that Hondas depreciate less than Toyotas. She said I will not be upside down on a Honda.
4. The car is in excellent condition, except the the minor front bumper damage. What is the KBB/NADA/Edmunds official condition? Excellent, Good, Average, or Poor? For "Excellent" it says they can be no body damage or repairs.
Car value ultimately = what car is worth for YOU. A dollar is a good starting point.
Ultimately, YOU will be the one to pay monthly fees. Ultimately, YOU will be the one to be either happy or not with the purchase.
hence, you listen to your heart. If your heart sings with this purchase - buy and don't worry about. If you are trying to do cold mind calculation, I safely bet in 6-10 months you'll rant here how much you overpaid, how sneaky dealer was, how much you hate the car, list continued.
Is this the third thread you've started on this vehicle or the fourth? Because I've lost count.
Props for picking the most appropriate username ever.
Anyway,
Quote:
Originally Posted by milkit
Questions:
1. Trying to determine a price to offer on this car. I've taken off depreciation and miles driven. Should I knock off the dealer hold back and two other secret factory-to-dealer rebates they get at closing which the sale rep showed me (abut $1,350 total)? Do I take extra cash off my offer instead of taking the free extended warranty, free Resistall, etc.?
At this point there is no chance for the dealer to make any money on this dog because they've already spent thousands in interest keeping it on the lot for two years. Offer them absolute dead cost - invoice less holdback and all incentives, in other words the amount they'll have to pay for the car.
Quote:
We are at more than $12,000 off the MSRP now, but I want to go further. The car dealership does not make the decision whether to accept the offer though. Only the corporate headquarters can. They will be more likely to accept by offer at the end of the month (now until 1/31) to make quota.
Why does everyone assume that all dealerships are going to be exactly one unit from making their quota at the end of the month? Maybe they've already made their quota, in which case they'll be less motivated to move this car right away.
Quote:
2. What does car "value" mean? All these websites are giving me a range of $24,00 to $31,000. Is "value" what the customer pays? Is it the MSRP? Is the customer allowed to pay below value? Can the dealer list it above value?
"Value" is supposed to be fair market value based on sales history, but the sales are reported by dealerships which whose best interests are served by overstating the sales figures when they report them. MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Key word "suggested". In most cases they can sell it for whatever they want, which is usually below MSRP but in the case of some limited editions can be above MSRP.
Quote:
3. The General Manager (who doubles as the Finance Manager) said Toyotas do NOT depreciate, only cars like Ford and Hyundai. Is this true? But my sales rep said Toyotas do depreciate. And the Honda dealer whom I saw the other day said Toyotas do depreciate, but not as much as other cars; and that Hondas depreciate less than Toyotas. She said I will not be upside down on a Honda.
All cars depreciate. All of them. Some hold their value better than others, but all go down in value. Frankly, I wouldn't even consider working with a dealership that made that claim because it's an out-and-out lie. Unless they're willing to put it in writing and guarantee to buy it back for what you paid for it, of course.
Quote:
4. The car is in excellent condition, except the the minor front bumper damage. What is the KBB/NADA/Edmunds official condition? Excellent, Good, Average, or Poor? For "Excellent" it says they can be no body damage or repairs.
It's either in excellent condition less the cost of the repair or good condition. Either listed value will be higher than the actual value, though.
I just learned that when it snowed, the dealer employees used to drive the cars fast then brake hard to knock the snow off the roofs. And one time when they did this, time the falling snow damaged the front wipers, arms, cowling, and linkage, but not the hood or glass. They had to be replaced for a little over $1,000. He said everything is fine now. CarFax reports no accidents though since the car has not been put in official use yet, either as a new car or as a demo.
Is this normal for dealers to get the snow off the car roofs this way? And should I be worried now that the car has been damaged?? Is another inspection by me warranted?
Is this the third thread you've started on this vehicle or the fourth? Because I've lost count.
Props for picking the most appropriate username ever.
Anyway,
At this point there is no chance for the dealer to make any money on this dog because they've already spent thousands in interest keeping it on the lot for two years. Offer them absolute dead cost - invoice less holdback and all incentives, in other words the amount they'll have to pay for the car.
Why does everyone assume that all dealerships are going to be exactly one unit from making their quota at the end of the month? Maybe they've already made their quota, in which case they'll be less motivated to move this car right away.
"Value" is supposed to be fair market value based on sales history, but the sales are reported by dealerships which whose best interests are served by overstating the sales figures when they report them. MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Key word "suggested". In most cases they can sell it for whatever they want, which is usually below MSRP but in the case of some limited editions can be above MSRP.
All cars depreciate. All of them. Some hold their value better than others, but all go down in value. Frankly, I wouldn't even consider working with a dealership that made that claim because it's an out-and-out lie. Unless they're willing to put it in writing and guarantee to buy it back for what you paid for it, of course.
It's either in excellent condition less the cost of the repair or good condition. Either listed value will be higher than the actual value, though.
Thanks duster1979 for your help. I will apply your formula.
As for as the end of the month quota thing is concerned, that is what the finance manger told me. I am just repeating his words.
I am scared to make a decision and have no one else but here to ask, so I just want to make sure I have the right offer. Sorry if anyone is upset.
Whatever you end up paying for this lemon, the dealer will be laughing as you drive away. It sounds like you are 100% too cozy with these grifters to see that the only ride you are getting is the one you are being taken for.
Every single thing that every person at this dealership has told you is an out and out lie.
EVERY. SINGLE. THING.
Do you even know what 'depreciate' means? I really don't think you do.
Whatever you end up paying for this lemon, the dealer will be laughing as you drive away. It sounds like you are 100% too cozy with these grifters to see that the only ride you are getting is the one you are being taken for.
Every single thing that every person at this dealership has told you is an out and out lie.
EVERY. SINGLE. THING.
You beat me to it Rugrats.
Car dealers are liars and thieves. They go to school to learn how to cheat the naïve customers without stepping over the line to outright fraud.
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