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Old 04-26-2018, 12:37 PM
 
758 posts, read 546,187 times
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Foreign car makers seem to recognize that if people have a good experience with an entry-level vehicle, when the move up they are more likely to stay with that company. IF they eventually move up from a mid-range vehicle to a luxury vehicle, the person may be more likely to switch, because at that point status becomes important. Yet, even then, the person may stay with the company, or an allied company (so, Toyota-->Lexus; VW-->Audi; Honda-->Acura).

Ford is basically killing its entry level, and betting that people will switch from Toyota entry level vehicles to Ford trucks. I think its a losing bet. Maybe they show better growth 2018-2022, as they will still get second-car buyers AND they'll have removed low profit-margin cars. But once they work through that backlog of people who bought Ford entry-level vehicles, we should see Ford losing market share and profits. And it'll be in part traceable to losing second-car buyers, for they never bought a Ford entry-level vehicle to develop brand loyalty because Ford will have no such entry-level vehicles to buy.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Alaska
3,146 posts, read 4,063,872 times
Reputation: 5470
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
You don't think they've done that? My goodness, people.....you have no idea what you're talking about. Obviously you never worked for an automotive company otherwise you wouldn't say things like this.

While the Japanese brands, for instance, do make a little more money on cars than the domestics do, it's not like they make a ton of money for them, either, in this country. That being said, some of the reasons domestic OEM's have a less profitable car (or money-loser) is:

- UAW
- Older, less efficient plants
- Less efficient suppliers, many of whom also have higher costs due to UAW labor. This is the biggest problem and....
- Inability to source competitive suppliers elsewhere due to Keiretsu and/or other barriers
- Higher piece costs due to global scale not being as big as the Asian companies since Japan, Korea and China all restrict sales of American companies
- Higher tax structure than the Asian companies
- Higher pension costs
- Higher healthcare costs

That's just the basics in a nutshell...
I understand that you worked at Ford for a long time but you need to seriously stop riding their jock and making excuses for them.

Answer me one simple question:

If Ford were the "Second Coming" (figuratively speaking) that you keep touting, then why can't they produce reliable and affordable sedans and make a profit like Honda and Toyota, who also use UAW labor in US plants while paying the same federal and state taxes and related costs?
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Alaska
3,146 posts, read 4,063,872 times
Reputation: 5470
Quote:
Originally Posted by SocSciProf View Post
Foreign car makers seem to recognize that if people have a good experience with an entry-level vehicle, when the move up they are more likely to stay with that company. IF they eventually move up from a mid-range vehicle to a luxury vehicle, the person may be more likely to switch, because at that point status becomes important. Yet, even then, the person may stay with the company, or an allied company (so, Toyota-->Lexus; VW-->Audi; Honda-->Acura).

Ford is basically killing its entry level, and betting that people will switch from Toyota entry level vehicles to Ford trucks. I think its a losing bet. Maybe they show better growth 2018-2022, as they will still get second-car buyers AND they'll have removed low profit-margin cars. But once they work through that backlog of people who bought Ford entry-level vehicles, we should see Ford losing market share and profits. And it'll be in part traceable to losing second-car buyers, for they never bought a Ford entry-level vehicle to develop brand loyalty because Ford will have no such entry-level vehicles to buy.
Thank you for articulating my thoughts so succinctly.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
1,879 posts, read 1,535,835 times
Reputation: 3055
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel View Post
Fiesta = Ecosport
Focus = Escape
Fusion = Edge
Taurus = Explorer

The Fusion is on a heavier, larger platform than the Escape so even though they offer the same engine in both that is not quite an apples-to-apples comparison.
Of course that’s true but interior volume wise the Escape is more similar to the Fusion than the Focus. People cross-shop a midsize sedan and a compact CUV more than a compact CUV and a compact hatchback/sedan.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
3,631 posts, read 7,627,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
They are reacting to the market....if sedans come back into vogue, they can go back to producing them.
This^^^ and crossovers are basically cars simply labeled with the term "crossover".

This is a pretty significant announcement none the less.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:04 PM
 
Location: South Park, San Diego
6,109 posts, read 10,820,127 times
Reputation: 12471
Quote:
Originally Posted by SocSciProf View Post
Foreign car makers seem to recognize that if people have a good experience with an entry-level vehicle, when the move up they are more likely to stay with that company. IF they eventually move up from a mid-range vehicle to a luxury vehicle, the person may be more likely to switch, because at that point status becomes important. Yet, even then, the person may stay with the company, or an allied company (so, Toyota-->Lexus; VW-->Audi; Honda-->Acura).

Ford is basically killing its entry level, and betting that people will switch from Toyota entry level vehicles to Ford trucks. I think its a losing bet. Maybe they show better growth 2018-2022, as they will still get second-car buyers AND they'll have removed low profit-margin cars. But once they work through that backlog of people who bought Ford entry-level vehicles, we should see Ford losing market share and profits. And it'll be in part traceable to losing second-car buyers, for they never bought a Ford entry-level vehicle to develop brand loyalty because Ford will have no such entry-level vehicles to buy.
I agree as well.

We rented a Fusion Hybrid in Hawaii a couple months ago, a car I never thought much about other than it was a good looking sedan and I was very impressed. The car just didn’t even use any gas! The IP wasn’t great but other than that it became a contender to consider as a next car. I would never consider an ugly Edge even if they are not that far removed and I loathe Prius’ even more after I drove one (I don’t drive poorly enough to own a Prius but that’s another topic) but Ford will remove forever buyers like us who still would consider an American brand even as we are coming from Japanese. Looks like the Japanese and Koreans will easily continue to win this potential customer.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:07 PM
 
2,376 posts, read 2,902,536 times
Reputation: 2253
Quote:
Originally Posted by phlinak View Post
I understand that you worked at Ford for a long time but you need to seriously stop riding their jock and making excuses for them.

Answer me one simple question:

If Ford were the "Second Coming" (figuratively speaking) that you keep touting, then why can't they produce reliable and affordable sedans and make a profit like Honda and Toyota, who also use UAW labor in US plants while paying the same federal and state taxes and related costs?

Honda and Toyota do not use UAW labor. If you don't even know that it's not even worth having any more debate about it.

I never said Ford was the "Second Coming" - they make plenty of their own mistakes - but the general public does not have a clue about how many advantages the Asian companies have that are no fault of Ford or GM. It's not a level playing field and never has been. It's better now and improves each year little by little, but the domestics will never have the ability to "scale-up" and produce the quantities required to have a competitive cost structure due to several of the world's largest markets being closed-off to fair trade. (Namely Japan, Korea and China.)

I defend them because they have been fighting with one hand behind their back for years. That's not the entire reason for some of their screw-ups, but that is a big reason on why they struggle to make money when they have a "hit" like the recent generation Fusion was.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:13 PM
 
Location: New England
2,190 posts, read 2,215,218 times
Reputation: 1968
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonMike7 View Post
I don't get it either. So damn boring to drive too. We have a CUV/SUV/whatever in our driveway and I don't even like driving it. Great for hauling the kids around, or running to Home Depot, but suck in terms of driving experience.


I plan on keeping to my 4-door sedans. Maybe an Infiniti Q50 next
I wish there were more true wagons in the US. They're more practical compared than small crossover SUV's. Only difference is that they're low to the ground and 10x more fun to drive. But Americans only buy them if they're jacked up like the Subaru Outback or Crosstrek.

Last edited by tysmith95; 04-26-2018 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,703 posts, read 79,429,689 times
Reputation: 39435
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysmith95 View Post
I don't understand the love for crossovers, it baffles me why they're so popular. I don't get why Americans are more attracted to a car if it's on stilts.
There are a lot of preferences I do not understand. Houses without interior walls, McMansions, subdivisions of overbuilt lots and tiny yards, majorly lifted trucks, built up or riced out civics and accords, Kane West . . . .
Best to just accept them and move on.

However I do see advantages to higher cars.

1. Bad knees or backs. (Easier to get in and out of for the inflexible).

2. High curbs.

3. Potholes.

4. Camping or going to a farm.

5. DIY repairs and oil changes.

6. Greater visibility while driving.

7. More comfortable seating positions.

8. Easier to find.

9. Easier to load.

10. Speed bumps.

For those of us who frequently drive on Forest trails, or mountain paths, or other off road or semi-road places, the advantage is obvious, but CUVs and the like to not provide enough extra ground clearance for that.


One I really did not understand was the Aztec. It sits up high but has no ground clearance. seems silly.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:47 PM
 
4,690 posts, read 10,354,285 times
Reputation: 14882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
However I do see advantages to higher cars.

1. Bad knees or backs. (Easier to get in and out of for the inflexible).

2. High curbs.

3. Potholes.

4. Camping or going to a farm.

5. DIY repairs and oil changes.

6. Greater visibility while driving.

7. More comfortable seating positions.

8. Easier to find.

9. Easier to load.

10. Speed bumps.

I'll agree with #1... might be convinced for #6 (I have even Better visibility on a motorcycle if that's important), but the rest is hooey.

I don't drive over curbs, so their height relative to my car is irrelevant.

Potholes are potholes, go around them or through them (and yes, I've lived in places where they can/do swallow cars) ~ this is more of an issue with wheel quality.

I Routinely went camping/skiing with my 4" ground clearance Jetta. I got stuck Once in 300k miles, while driving uphill, on an unplowed driveway with 5~6" of fresh snow. Made it most of the quarter mile to the ski cabin before high-centering. Judgement call after a long drive, I could have easily prevented it by spending a half hour walking the driveway (and it was supposed to be plowed when I got there).... no other time was clearance an issue (Rockies for 10 years, Georgia now).

Not sure what an extra couple of inches matter on DIY maintenance ~ you're still not sliding under it/need jacks and stands.

Seating position within the vehicle is independent of the vehicle exterior/chassis.

easier to find? Huh?

Easier to load? do you mean #1 again (getting in and out)? Otherwise, huh?

Back to my 4" clearance (that's stock BTW, I'm sure I had lower before I replaced my shocks) Jetta and ZERO issues with any/all speed bumps everywhere.



It's okay to like the SUV/CUV trend, there's no accounting for personal taste. But don't try to justify it like this. You cheapen your whole argument.
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