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Then why is Toyota Tundra so expensive are they paying for their huge Pension liabilities explain that.
Toyota will charge whatever the market will bear. Ford, Chevy, Dodge/Ram all have those costs built into them. Do you deny that is part of the cost structure of the Big Three?
I don't think so. Frankly, if you aren't towing something they're bouncy. Everyone I know that has a 3/4 ton (at least a newer one as opposed to someone that bought a beat-around truck) either works in a trade, or otherwise tows something big, often.
I just traded my 3/4 ton in for a 1 ton 3500 Ram dually. 3-4 days a week it is driven on the highway unloaded to work. It has a stiff suspension, sure.... but not uncomfortable. And this is a scenario of choosing what you need more; towing capacity or a cushy ride. You really can't have both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude
I'm sure the legions of heavier-duty pickups parked in suburban driveways across America are frequently used for such heavy chores.
When they're not being kept spotless so as not to dirty suits, dresses and Timmy's soccer uniform, that is.
My Ram is kept spotless and if you just saw me at the grocery store you might incorrectly "assume" that I don't use it. However, pass my house and see the 36' fifth wheel and you'll quickly learn why I have it. Big trucks can be kept clean and still worked. I like to maintain as much value in my vehicles as possible and keeping them clean helps the cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernnaturelover
Let’s just say the wife has a car and the husband has a truck. Sure, the husband isn’t hauling stuff everyday with the truck, but he still needs transportation to work since the wife uses the car. Owning a third vehicle just to keep from driving the truck everyday isn’t practical for many families.
Bingo. I have a 3rd vehicle... (GASP.... we have a 2002 Jeep Wrangler TJ that has never been off-road!!) But on days where I need to swing by the home center on my way from work the TJ just isn't the rig for the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62
Yea, its ridiculous what they charge for the diesel engine upgrade on these trucks, when I looked at trucks, diesels were able to tow more and more powerful, but not that much more powerful than gas engines (definitely not worth the option cost).
Another issue was that diesels last so long, but looking around on the road, I dont see that many older diesel pickup trucks, from what I saw on the classifieds, diesel pickups that had around 250K or higher miles were considered at the end of their useful life and were priced accordingly...now when you get into medium duty and heavy trucks, THOSE diesel engines normally last to 700K or even a million miles...
If pickup truck diesels lasted up to 700K+miles, the diesel option would be worth it.
Have you ever priced a diesel engine from the manufacturer? A 6.7L Cummins crate engine starts at $15k. As to the power comment.
You have two options on the 2017 3/4 T Ram truck:
A 6.4L Hemi (410 HP/ 429 lb.ft torque)
a 6.7L Cummins (385 HP/900 lb.ft torque)
Not much of a power difference? There's over double the torque which is what you need for towing. A diesel properly maintained is not near the end of its useful life at 250k. Diesel engines routinely go well over 300k-400k miles before any major work. The emission system will potentially fail, but that isn't the engine. Delete the emissions equipment and you're right back to a workhorse that will last a half a million miles or better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke944
Why do people love trucks that rarely or never actually use the bed or tow with it? Can someone explain why they are so popular - is it just the idea that they have the bed if they ever need it? or is it just the idea of owning a truck? or what?
Reminds me of Jeep owners who never offroad, I just don't get it.
I own both. A Jeep that never goes offroad (because we enjoy driving it), and a 1 ton truck that typically sees daily commuter use until the weekends. It's also handy when I am working on home projects. You can't know how people use their trucks unless you live with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S
I usually agree with your posts but the "longevity and value of diesels" is definitely a concern with the newer ones (and their complicated emissions and sensitive fuel systems). Visit any big Ford dealer and ask how many diesels are sitting out behind the service dept waiting to be repaired. A life long friend is a service writer at a busy Ford store and the diesels are 3 weeks out from even being looked at. They are short staffed for diesel mechanics but the supply of broken trucks never lets up. Pop the hood on a new diesel and look at how many coolers/radiators/fans that are tucked under there! Also add to the mix that the whole cab gets removed to work on most diesels.........how crazy is that!
Gas motors sure won't pull at the limits the diesels offer but then again a gas truck today easily out tows a diesel from 20 years ago. The "diesel" savings isn't there either with higher fuel costs and shockingly similar MPG's to gassers. Start with a 8-10K savings off the MSRP and suddenly the "diesel" doesn't look like a must have!
Diesels break more because people don't realize the importance of following a strict maintenance regimen. Don't go past oil changes because the emission system allows some fuel to get into the oil. Oil changes must be on time. Don't neglect changing the fuel filter on time because diesel can easily be contaminated with water. Don't fill up the DEF tank to full if you're only driving a few miles per week. DEF has a shelf life. Most of it is the lack of understanding the requirements to own a diesel and neglecting it.
If towing, a similarly equipped gas engine truck will not see nearly the MPG that a diesel can. Unloaded the 2016 Ram 2500 with the 6.4L Hemi averages around 12 mpg. My previous Ram 2500 averaged around 14mpg empty prior to emissions delete. Pulling a 7k load on a flat interstate with 3.73 gearing nets 6-8 mpg. Towing the same load with the 6.7L Cummins and 3.73 gearing nets around 11-11.5 mpg.
Quick beer math says (all based on a 500 mile trip):
We are also paying for the manufacturers' huge PENSION liabilities in that $55k - $65k price.
The manufacturers CHOSE to continue operations instead of shutting down the plants and outsourcing or quitting the game altogether. They’ve been unionized since 1935 so if the Big 3 were going to collapse, it would have happened already.
Customers also CHOSE those trucks instead of imports, hence why Toyota and Nissan do not have a 2500/3500 pickup segment. The buy-in is anything but cheap, however, consumer demand is stil there and supports the market for pickups.
You got that backwards, the first 2 years see the biggest value drops. The day it drives off the lot it suffers a huge hit, simply because it's status changes from new to used.
The way you bought your truck is the way to do it, I honestly don't know how they find enough people willing to suffer the first few years of depreciation to sell all the new vehicles each year.
This is not true......I bought a leftover F150 lariat crew cab brand new for 30,900 (MSRP was 40,525). I drove it 5 years/59K miles and traded it for 22k. I got a Carmax offer for 22K separately so I felt it was a fair offer. The dealer put it back on the used car lot for $26,000 with zero warranty (it was 5 yrs old). I bought it brand new for $4900 more! Where is the value drop?
I just traded an SUV, lost 11K in 25 months/48K miles. Paid 46K new (54K MSRP), it is on a dealer lot right now for 38,999. Where is the big savings buying used? I put 48,000 miles on it so it was well kept but no where near new.
Diesels break more because people don't realize the importance of following a strict maintenance regimen. Don't go past oil changes because the emission system allows some fuel to get into the oil. Oil changes must be on time. Don't neglect changing the fuel filter on time because diesel can easily be contaminated with water. Don't fill up the DEF tank to full if you're only driving a few miles per week. DEF has a shelf life. Most of it is the lack of understanding the requirements to own a diesel and neglecting it.
If towing, a similarly equipped gas engine truck will not see nearly the MPG that a diesel can. Unloaded the 2016 Ram 2500 with the 6.4L Hemi averages around 12 mpg. My previous Ram 2500 averaged around 14mpg empty prior to emissions delete. Pulling a 7k load on a flat interstate with 3.73 gearing nets 6-8 mpg. Towing the same load with the 6.7L Cummins and 3.73 gearing nets around 11-11.5 mpg.
Quick beer math says (all based on a 500 mile trip):
6.7L 2500:
500 miles / 11 mpg = 45.45 gallons
45.45 gallons x $3.00 /gallon = $136.35
I commend you on your honest math......I love when the diesel guys start with the "it gets 25 mpg on the highway" nonsense.......that just tells me they suck at math!
Your beer math looks reasonable for a 7K load. But the difference shrinks dramatically driving around empty (2 mpg difference).
I personally know 4 people that dropped the diesel simply because the math didn't work for them any more. All 4 guys bought the same truck they owned prior, same trim level just minus the diesel engine. Nobody switched brands either (loyalty is still there). Nobody missed the expensive oil changes, the frequent fuel filter swaps, the smell etc.
I commend you on your honest math......I love when the diesel guys start with the "it gets 25 mpg on the highway" nonsense.......that just tells me they suck at math!
Your beer math looks reasonable for a 7K load. But the difference shrinks dramatically driving around empty (2 mpg difference).
I personally know 4 people that dropped the diesel simply because the math didn't work for them any more. All 4 guys bought the same truck they owned prior, same trim level just minus the diesel engine. Nobody switched brands either (loyalty is still there). Nobody missed the expensive oil changes, the frequent fuel filter swaps, the smell etc.
That is true in some cases for sure. It really depends on the individual setup. By the time I got rid of my 3/4 ton it was averaging 18.5 mpg mixed driving because I deleted the emissions equipment. That stuff really chokes down the engine and kills efficiency. Of course not everyone can do that...
I am leaving it in tact on my 2016 because it functions. If it breaks I will delete it. The bonus to running the DEF on my 2016 is that there is literally zero diesel smell from the exhaust. I was quite surprised with it.
Oil changes aren't really horrific honestly... My oil gets changed every 7,500 miles @ $85. My fuel filter gets changed every other oil change @ $48. That's $170 for two oil changes in 15k miles. My wifes 2014 Expedition gets an oil change every 5k miles @54 per event. That's $162 in 15k miles. Pretty negligible honestly.
The cost differential is in the fuel filter. But I make that up in other areas where I don't need spark plugs or coil packs. That costs me about $300-350 every 90k miles. 90k miles worth of fuel filters on my diesel is about $288.
Long term they're close enough to a wash that I can't find any benefit in a gasser over my diesel (but another person's usage might be different).
The manufacturers CHOSE to continue operations instead of shutting down the plants and outsourcing or quitting the game altogether. They’ve been unionized since 1935 so if the Big 3 were going to collapse, it would have happened already.
Customers also CHOSE those trucks instead of imports, hence why Toyota and Nissan do not have a 2500/3500 pickup segment. The buy-in is anything but cheap, however, consumer demand is stil there and supports the market for pickups.
This is not true......I bought a leftover F150 lariat crew cab brand new for 30,900 (MSRP was 40,525). I drove it 5 years/59K miles and traded it for 22k. I got a Carmax offer for 22K separately so I felt it was a fair offer. The dealer put it back on the used car lot for $26,000 with zero warranty (it was 5 yrs old). I bought it brand new for $4900 more! Where is the value drop?
I just traded an SUV, lost 11K in 25 months/48K miles. Paid 46K new (54K MSRP), it is on a dealer lot right now for 38,999. Where is the big savings buying used? I put 48,000 miles on it so it was well kept but no where near new.
It doesn’t matter what the dealer is charging to resell it. Unless you’re selling it for that $26,000 price it’s inconsequential. All that matters is what it cost you to buy and sell. The loss or gain ends with you. You basically paid 9,000 bucks to drive that car for 5 years. So assuming a full 5 years 60 months/9,000 is $150 a month. The reason you got a good deal was because it was a leftover. If the dealer sells it for 26,000 they made 4K in profit.
I drive diesels because I got them for a good price, they do everything I need and they actually get decent mpg. And they’re paid off so the only thing they end is maintance. I could rebuild the whole drivetrain for the cost of a down payment on a new diesel truck. They also tow better than any of my friends who have gassers. About 17 unloaded on the highway. If I grandma drive them I can touch 18/19. City is about 141/15. But I can’t justify buying a new diesel. The cost is simply something I’m unwilling to pay. And there is nothing that I own that either of my diesels cannot tow. For me to buy a new diesel truck is pointless.
Toyota will charge whatever the market will bear. Ford, Chevy, Dodge/Ram all have those costs built into them. Do you deny that is part of the cost structure of the Big Three?
Nope it’s not a cost structure by the big3 do you think they have a conspiracy method to their pricing. And you do not know how they price their vehicles because you don’t work for them and haven’t a clue on the workings of a automotive manufacturer. You like others just guess wildly and cannot back up your facts in writing. So you think just because the big3 charge for the prices for their pickups that Toyota is just copying after them. Materials and cost keep going up especially steel and aluminum. The big3 cost structure is based on so many factors that all of us on here have no idea how a automaker is run so all we can do is give a layman’s guess. Until you can get into the CEO’s office and check their files all we can do is be automotive enthusiasts.
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