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Old 11-11-2018, 09:06 AM
 
9,868 posts, read 7,612,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
1. winter tires
2. very gentle accelerations. VERY
3. very gentle steering wheel maneuvers. VERY. What means a lot of ahead planning.
4. lots of engine braking instead of pedal braking
5. if you hit the patch and went into glide, do NOT brake. IMMEDIATELY shift into neutral. THEN do pulse braking. Again, NO sudden steering wheel movements.
Basically, you triple your distance to a car in front of you and make everything else very slow and well planned ahead. Going up hill or down hill, you get right side of your car off the road, onto shoulder, as it's always filled with rocks and pebbles, what results in high friction surface. Stay away from anything black on the road. If possible, drive on SNOW as snow is high friction, when not compacted.
Remember one thing. Even if you have AWD or 4x4, if you do stupid, you go from four wheel drive to four wheel slide.
These are all good tips for vehicles that DON’T have ABS. #1 through #4 are good tips for all vehicles.
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Old 11-11-2018, 02:37 PM
 
24,512 posts, read 18,020,565 times
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Meh. The only time ABS is a disadvantage is downhill braking in deep snow. The car stops better with the wheels locked up creating a big pile of snow in front of the wheels. With ABS, the car won’t ever stop. That shocked the heck out of me years ago the first time I rolled through a stop sign at the bottom of the ski resort access road in deep unplowed snow. Now, I expect it and engine brake to keep my speed to a crawl.

Otherwise, I agree with the comments here that you’d might as well just hit the brake pedal. Nothing else is going to slow the car quicker. You at least have control so you can steer your way out of hitting things. With winter driving, it’s all about knowing the control envelope of the car. You need to leave the appropriate separation to give yourself room to stop. There is no replacement for the experience of lots of snow driving miles. I normally snow drive like I have failed brakes. If I need to use the brakes beyond a complete stop from under 5 mph, I planned it wrong.
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Old 11-12-2018, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
276 posts, read 335,697 times
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Here's how I use ABS in winter (snow) driving or wet slippery conditions.

I drive at what I think is an appropriate speed for the road conditions, which on snow covered roads is always much slower than normal. On a strait section of road with no traffic around, not even behind me, I step on the brake pedal firmly as though I wanted to make a quick emergency stop as if a deer had jumped out in front of me or something.

If the ABS system kicks in and I feel the brake pedal vibrate/pulse, then I know I'm going too fast for conditions and I slow down even more.

ABS isn't magic and won't save you from driving too fast for conditions or beyond your skill level.
ABS is great for inexperienced drivers in poor road condition or any driver in a panic stopping condition which can happen to almost everyone. But, there are times when ABS won't outperform a very experienced or professional driver, and that only comes with practice and experience.
ABS is a great system 99% of the time.


Most of what has been written here applies to snowy or slippery roads. The word ICE has been mentioned several times. On actual ICE, like smooth frozen rain on the road with no snow on it, Ice you could actually ice-skate on, the only thing that will save you is studded tires or chains. Actual pure ice condition happen pretty rarely and when the do - stay home. If you have to go out because your "critical personnel" or what ever, then buy studded snow tires... and drive slow.


Stay safe.


P.S. Here's an example of that 1% of the time when ABS didn't out perform me.



It was raining, but not a heavy rain. I was driving slower than usual to be safe in the rainy conditions. I approached a 90° turn in the road, at an intersection, at about 20 mph while applying the brakes normally. To my amazement the ABS kicked in and the the car was skidding toward the curb strait ahead. I suspect there was oil on the road along with the rain. I knew at the low speed I was going the only way to regain steering and make the turn was to completely let off the brakes, which I did, and made the turn without further incident. It's exactly opposite what your every fiber of your body is telling you to do. When your about to hit something instinct tells you to hit the brakes. Reality is the front wheels MUST turn in order to steer. In that scenario the front wheels were skidding only intermittently because of the ABS, but it was still just a little too much and I would have hit the curb if I held the brakes on, ABS or not.
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Old 11-12-2018, 09:20 AM
 
15,708 posts, read 20,239,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
Meh. The only time ABS is a disadvantage is downhill braking in deep snow. The car stops better with the wheels locked up creating a big pile of snow in front of the wheels. With ABS, the car won’t ever stop.
I agree. The only time I dislike ABS is when braking in fluff snow conditions at low speed or even creeping. When the snow is right at freezing temp, it gets VERY slick. No worse feeling to be creeping along slowly at 1-2MPH and still unable to stop due to the ABS chattering away. For those times I really wish there was a button I could press to disable ABS like there is to disable traction control when you get stuck in snow.

-----------

I've done performance racing in cars with both ABS and no ABS. I'll take the ABS equipped car anyday over the one without it.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,703 posts, read 79,429,689 times
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Depending on the conditions, a good driver can do better than ABS. Especially if there are patches of ice and clean road.

For a full on panic stop in consistent wet or snow/ice/mud ABS is better than driver.


Some ABS systems crunch and grind and lurch wildly (Ford I think). Those scare the heck out of you, but they still work. Others are barely noticeable unless you are really jamming on the brake. There is a significant difference between the makers.

Sometimes ABS can be detrimental. It kicks in too readily.
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:17 PM
 
2,258 posts, read 1,125,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrabel View Post
Do you not get what "anti lock" means? I'll fill you in, it means that the wheels WILL NOT lock up on ice. It really shouldn't be this hard of a concept to grasp.
You should look up videos on youtube that show people driving on ice. ABS doesnt always save you.
If you slow down enough to where the ABS think the car has stopped, like all the wheels stop turning, the wheels do lock up and you will slide.

Try doing research to know what youre talking about next time.
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Old 11-13-2018, 12:55 PM
 
28,980 posts, read 14,317,975 times
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K.I.S.S.
That is the best approach with winter driving. First, make sure your vehicle has the correct tires. They make a world of difference. Second, use common sense. Forget how the other drivers are driving, other than paying attention to where they are. Drive in your comfort zone. And if you end up in a situation when the ABS kicks in, trust it.


Last year on a snowmobile trip , pulling a 30' trailer with 5 sleds in it, out of the 800 miles, 600 where locked in 4wd in close to white out conditions, 30mph winds and a completely snow covered road. I drove to my comfort zone (50ish) even though I saw many running faster than that. We made it with no issues, but saw many that didn't.
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Louisville KY
4,857 posts, read 5,777,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek_Freek View Post
With a choice of ABS or no ABS in a panic stop ABS is an absolute no-brainer summer or winter. If you disagree you need to learn how they work. They won't keep some idiot from pilling out in front of you (like I had Friday morning), but they will, especially in winter, stop you quicker.

And for anyone who has a car old enough to not have ABS pumping the pedal is correct on snow and ice.

And the poster who advised practicing in winter is 100% correct.

Just spotted this post by you and it tells me that you know little to nothing about the operation of ABS systems. Please refrain from giving out bad advice,
I not only know how ABS works, but I also know how to do an ABS brake bleed. A panic stop is usually defined as quickly slamming on the brakes with the service brake. anybody who knows how brakes work will tell you that even with ABS, you CAN lock up the wheels. Point blank. Enough brake pressure will overcome the ABS. Anyone who doesn't believe me can easily do an experiment by driving you car 30+ in a safe situation and slam on your brakes. Put both feet in it. Your wheels will lock up and the loss of traction; kinetic energy converted to heat energy and weight transfer will cause the car to slide/skid, possibly turn. Bet on it. So yes an ABS equiped car can help in a panic stop more than a car without, but only until it reaches the point of overcoming the system. At that point... it might as well not have it. Which is why it's advised to not do panic stops. In a situation of low friction adherance, it's even stupider. If you think you need to slam on the brakes, you're going to wreck anyway. Lots of vehicles from CMVS to race cars have ABS, how often do you see jack-knifed rigs? The tractor has ABS, all trailers built on and after March 1997 has to have ABS, they jack-knife because of panic stops ergo locking up brakes. F1 cars and Rally cars have ABS. F1 tires are designed for maximum grip and probably one of the most technological vehicles today. They and rally cars still get brake lockup with ABS.


Again; ABS is an AID not a scapegoat for yttihs driving. You should be dropping your speed and increasing your following distance in winter anyway, as well as braking earlier than normal. I don't care if you're driving any itteration of the batmobile, drive safe and remember those driving aids are to supplement your skills, not replace them. I have never owned a vehicle with ABS or functioning RABS, even my 08 CVPI has it dissabled. Last winter I survived with only one skid situation which I got out of and with the bullslit Eagle RSAs on it.
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Louisville KY
4,857 posts, read 5,777,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrabel View Post
Do you not get what "anti lock" means? I'll fill you in, it means that the wheels WILL NOT lock up on ice. It really shouldn't be this hard of a concept to grasp.
Yes they will.
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Old 11-13-2018, 03:01 PM
 
28,803 posts, read 47,525,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaxRhapsody View Post
I not only know how ABS works, but I also know how to do an ABS brake bleed. A panic stop is usually defined as quickly slamming on the brakes with the service brake. anybody who knows how brakes work will tell you that even with ABS, you CAN lock up the wheels. Point blank. Enough brake pressure will overcome the ABS. Anyone who doesn't believe me can easily do an experiment by driving you car 30+ in a safe situation and slam on your brakes. Put both feet in it. Your wheels will lock up and the loss of traction; kinetic energy converted to heat energy and weight transfer will cause the car to slide/skid, possibly turn. Bet on it. So yes an ABS equiped car can help in a panic stop more than a car without, but only until it reaches the point of overcoming the system. At that point... it might as well not have it. Which is why it's advised to not do panic stops. In a situation of low friction adherance, it's even stupider. If you think you need to slam on the brakes, you're going to wreck anyway. Lots of vehicles from CMVS to race cars have ABS, how often do you see jack-knifed rigs? The tractor has ABS, all trailers built on and after March 1997 has to have ABS, they jack-knife because of panic stops ergo locking up brakes. F1 cars and Rally cars have ABS. F1 tires are designed for maximum grip and probably one of the most technological vehicles today. They and rally cars still get brake lockup with ABS.


Again; ABS is an AID not a scapegoat for yttihs driving. You should be dropping your speed and increasing your following distance in winter anyway, as well as braking earlier than normal. I don't care if you're driving any itteration of the batmobile, drive safe and remember those driving aids are to supplement your skills, not replace them. I have never owned a vehicle with ABS or functioning RABS, even my 08 CVPI has it dissabled. Last winter I survived with only one skid situation which I got out of and with the bullslit Eagle RSAs on it.
Who does that? Both feet as hard as you can? You can break any system if you abuse it.

And I don't care if you can do an ABS brake bleed. Big whoop.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. For someone who claims to be an "expert" you don't seem to understand how things work. I'll let you find my previous post regarding the car that pulled out in front of me. I'm not going to spoon feed it to you.


Amazing what people think is true.
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