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Old 05-22-2019, 06:51 PM
 
6,503 posts, read 3,390,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
I think what he’s asking for is more specific. If you’re car theoretically has a 310 mile range, how far can you go if it’s 0 degrees outside? 170? Doesn’t it tell you?
Distance remaining will NEVER be accurate in those scenarios. Or, honest, I should say, because we should know by now how much a measurable draw will affect remaining life. How much the battery will heat up with X current demand, how much that increased temp will affect output, how much heat can the battery coolant circuit shed, etc. With about a decade of "serious EV data" under their belts, manufacturers should be able to display an accurate DTE that is responsive to HVAC settings changes, accessory draw, and ambient temperature. I can see it now - "the number jumps around too much!" - well... you're changing settings too much!

I have a feeling that eventually, EV's will see the same revision to their efficiency ratings as ICE-powered vehicles did in 2008.

2012 Chevy Volt, weather somewhere near freezing. I turn on heat (resistive) and heated seats, using them for my entire commute. Battery range states 33 mi, but I will inevitably run out of charge and kick over to ICE in ~20 miles. It's that much of an impact.

Resistive heat is still used for a reason:

1. No sources of heat that can be readily drawn from with an EV - engine coolant is a good source on an ICE - but the battery coolant will almost never get so hot as to provide a good source of heat for a core.

2. No more efficient options, such as a heat pump / exchanger, in freezing weather or below. You could modulate the compressor with a defrost circuit for temporary relief but I wouldn't rely on it over 200,000+ miles.

3. People want SUSTAINED COMFORT in a $50k, 80k, 100k car. Immediate heat, that lasts.
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
11,973 posts, read 9,050,620 times
Reputation: 15330
A colleague at the office who lives in the northern suburbs of Boston has a Tesla Model S, he said he has a garage where he's charging it overnight, which helps a good deal, and further, he said you can program a battery warmer to have the battery warm when you get out there, and with that going, there's little impact of cold weather.
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:12 AM
 
Location: NYC
20,550 posts, read 17,519,649 times
Reputation: 25616
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
A colleague at the office who lives in the northern suburbs of Boston has a Tesla Model S, he said he has a garage where he's charging it overnight, which helps a good deal, and further, he said you can program a battery warmer to have the battery warm when you get out there, and with that going, there's little impact of cold weather.
In the end having all this crap done at your garage like putting in 240v for faster charging and a dedicated charging port is more than price of gas when using a hybrid.

I recommend anyone to buy a hybrid over an EV because it's just cheaper and more convenient in the long run having a hybrid than EV.

With a Plug-in Hybrids can also charge where ever there is charging.

You don't have to charge, filling up gas takes 1/2 the amount of time because hybrids usually have smaller gas tanks while still getting same or better distance than non-hybrids.

For long trips hybrids are the way to go, no worry about having to stop for an hour to charge when gas stations are everywhere.

At 45mpg+ for most hybrids a fill up costs less than $30 and gives you a range of usually 400miles+

If you have any issues, the car mfg has plenty of parts and you can get online and anywhere. Tesla parts are very hard to get and takes months to source.

Prius loses only 10% mpg in the winter vs 40-50% for Tesla
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Old 05-23-2019, 05:18 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas & San Diego
6,906 posts, read 3,304,160 times
Reputation: 8618
This thread is about viability of EV as a long distance vehicle, not EV vs gas or hybrid - try to stay on topic please.

Quote:
Prius loses only 10% mpg in the winter vs 40-50% for Tesla
Where did you get that figure of 40-50% loss in winter weather, that is not correct. As batteries get cold, they charge slower and the usable energy that can be extracted is less which results in lower range. A Tesla has an active battery management system to keep the battery warm (or cooled) so that range loss is not as big as would be otherwise. Some other EVs with a passive battery management system (like the LEAF) do have some significant reductions in range. I have driven in cold weather with a Tesla and have seen some reduction in range but probably more like 10-15%. A Tesla did a record Cannonball run in Dec 2018 during a cold snap and did not have a range issue.

A hybrid can be worse than a regular gas car in range loss since the battery is not very usable in the cold unless it has the means to stay warm and I don't think any hybrid has the management system to keep the battery warm.
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Old 05-23-2019, 05:41 AM
 
35,309 posts, read 52,028,295 times
Reputation: 30998
Another road trip in an EV =


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inhyl3lMslA

While id love to have an electric vehicle the infrastructure to charge the car is not a viable option at this point.
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Old 05-23-2019, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
11,973 posts, read 9,050,620 times
Reputation: 15330
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
In the end having all this crap done at your garage like putting in 240v for faster charging and a dedicated charging port is more than price of gas when using a hybrid.

I recommend anyone to buy a hybrid over an EV because it's just cheaper and more convenient in the long run having a hybrid than EV.

With a Plug-in Hybrids can also charge where ever there is charging.

You don't have to charge, filling up gas takes 1/2 the amount of time because hybrids usually have smaller gas tanks while still getting same or better distance than non-hybrids.

For long trips hybrids are the way to go, no worry about having to stop for an hour to charge when gas stations are everywhere.

At 45mpg+ for most hybrids a fill up costs less than $30 and gives you a range of usually 400miles+

If you have any issues, the car mfg has plenty of parts and you can get online and anywhere. Tesla parts are very hard to get and takes months to source.

Prius loses only 10% mpg in the winter vs 40-50% for Tesla
Running a circuit isn't too bad, the charger is actually in the vehicle. As far as what I personally plan, I plan on building a house next year in Maine, and I plan to have the garage wired for a high amp 240V circuit while they're at it. I just bought a new Forester this spring, and will keep it for awhile. My next car will likely be a hybrid - automakers are bringing out more of those, just like they're bringing out more electric cars. Hybrids get about 30-40% better mileage and as you point out, don't need any supporting infrastructure, so a good bridging technology to reduce fossil fuel consumption. I only keep 1 vehicle at a time, and to me EVs are a good 2nd car in a 2-car household, but not as the only car in a 1-car household at this point. FWIW, my colleague with the Tesla Model S is married, but they both have EVs, wifey has a BMW, and he says it's fine now already.

Last edited by OutdoorLover; 05-23-2019 at 05:52 AM..
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Old 05-23-2019, 06:55 AM
 
Location: The DMV
6,561 posts, read 11,195,420 times
Reputation: 8590
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
In the end having all this crap done at your garage like putting in 240v for faster charging and a dedicated charging port is more than price of gas when using a hybrid.

I recommend anyone to buy a hybrid over an EV because it's just cheaper and more convenient in the long run having a hybrid than EV.

With a Plug-in Hybrids can also charge where ever there is charging.

You don't have to charge, filling up gas takes 1/2 the amount of time because hybrids usually have smaller gas tanks while still getting same or better distance than non-hybrids.

For long trips hybrids are the way to go, no worry about having to stop for an hour to charge when gas stations are everywhere.

At 45mpg+ for most hybrids a fill up costs less than $30 and gives you a range of usually 400miles+

If you have any issues, the car mfg has plenty of parts and you can get online and anywhere. Tesla parts are very hard to get and takes months to source.

Prius loses only 10% mpg in the winter vs 40-50% for Tesla
Adding a NEMA 14-50 outlet can be as low as a few hundred bucks. The biggest factor is the run from where you want the outlet to the breaker. I have a buddy who's breaker box is in the garage (and the garage is unfinished). It cost him $150 to have it installed. For me, it was on the high end (~$2K before the tax incentive) as the breaker is in the basement and on the opposite side of the house from the garage.

As for car choices - that is personal and subjective. And we can cherry pick factors all day and say why a certain car is not the right choice. While a hybrid is a great choice for those that want to save on gas - outside of the exotics, hybrids have little performance attributes. Again, that may not be at all a factor for a buyer. Just as having to drive 500 miles to the mountains for skiing every weekend makes EVs (and frankly, many types of cars) a bad choice - tt doesn't make these cars "bad" in general.

At the end of the day - to each their own.

No - EVs are not as versatile as ICEs from a fuel perspective. But again, how versatile are 2 door convertibles in snowy northern areas? Your range is pretty much down to zero if there is more snow than the car's clearance.

And I'm not sure where you got that 40-50% number... seems a bit arbitrary when there are various factors that can impact that.
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Old 05-23-2019, 10:39 AM
 
17,479 posts, read 17,325,651 times
Reputation: 25468
If you’ve ever traveled in Texas you’ve seen those large truck stop/restaurant/stores. Places like this are perfect for EV charging stations. These businesses are located just off the main interstate highway, offer restaurants for dinning, store for shopping, and other services depending on the company and location. One of our small town local libraries is installing an EV charging station. Another location that could be good for EV charging stations are national and state parks.

I’m still an ICE car guy but I like there to be viable options. Perhaps one day I may get an EV as my daily commuter. We don’t get harsh winters here in south Louisiana but we do run our AC compressor almost year round because of humidity and fogging up windows in the winter. But for now the price of the cheapest EV is jut too much to justify the purchase of such a vehicle. That’s my personal financial buying decision. Don’t try to justify the purchase price nor push tax incentives. It’s just my personal choice. I could live with a Nissan Leaf as a daily commuter. But for now I’ll stick with an ICE vehicle.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
10,244 posts, read 16,289,983 times
Reputation: 5303
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveklein View Post
And this circles back to my original point... that there just aren't enough superchargers. What was happening when they didn't charge that fee is people would go eat and take their sweet time and come back to a fully charged car with other Tesla owners impatiently waiting to charge.

Just another bit of convenience that EV owners sacrifice and then refuse to admit that it is a sacrifice at all.
Do you own a Tesla and if so have you ever faced this scenario?

I own a Tesla and have used dozens of superchargers and have never experienced a time where more than half of the chargers were being utilized. Tesla only charges an idle fee if the supercharger station is more than 50% occupied. Also, the Tesla app allows you to monitor this real-time so any diligent owner would never face idle fees. Thus, I don’t agree with your statement that there aren’t enough superchargers as for me personally that doesn’t reflect what I’m seeing in the real world.

Here I would say you’re making an issue where one doesn’t exist.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
10,244 posts, read 16,289,983 times
Reputation: 5303
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
In the end having all this crap done at your garage like putting in 240v for faster charging and a dedicated charging port is more than price of gas when using a hybrid.

I recommend anyone to buy a hybrid over an EV because it's just cheaper and more convenient in the long run having a hybrid than EV.

With a Plug-in Hybrids can also charge where ever there is charging.

You don't have to charge, filling up gas takes 1/2 the amount of time because hybrids usually have smaller gas tanks while still getting same or better distance than non-hybrids.

For long trips hybrids are the way to go, no worry about having to stop for an hour to charge when gas stations are everywhere.

At 45mpg+ for most hybrids a fill up costs less than $30 and gives you a range of usually 400miles+

If you have any issues, the car mfg has plenty of parts and you can get online and anywhere. Tesla parts are very hard to get and takes months to source.

Prius loses only 10% mpg in the winter vs 40-50% for Tesla
Everyone’s situation is different. We happened to already have a NEMA 6-50 outlet in our garage. When we bought our Tesla we invested a grand total of $35 for a Tesla adaptor and we were in business.

I’ve driven both hybrids and EVs. If we’re comparing a short range EV like the Nissan Leaf then I agree with you. I’d easily opt for a Chevy Volt or Toyota Prius in that case. The Leaf’s range and slow charging makes it too limiting in its utility.

When we’re talking about long range EVs with supercharging capability, like my Tesla Model 3, then I’ll take the Tesla over a hybrid any day of the week.

So to each their own.
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