Nissan could beat Tesla at their own game (2009, Japanese, Buick)
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And this is why these boards are down in the gutters with these EV/ICE debates.
Generally, everyone cherry picks their arguments to make a point - but the EV discussion has reached a new all time low.
I'm enjoying my EV, it's been really impressive. But 'cmon, nobody regularly spends "30 minutes to a couple of hours..." to fill up an ICE vehicle. Since you're calling yourself grumpy and old, maybe the memories of the gas crisis in the 70's is clouding your perspective. The example is flawed since 99% of the time, you are stopping off to get gas on your way to/from your destination as opposed to making a specific trip.
And yes - having an EV provides the advantage that you can "fill up" the vehicle at home. But that doesn't negate the fact that charging an EV does take much longer than filling up an ICE vehicle.
It's nice that you never have to stop at a gas stations again and can have a "full" car every morning. But when you have an ICE vehicle with its gas gauges on E and a EV with it's power at <5%. The ICE is going to be back on the road sooner. How much does that matter will depend on what the owner of car is trying to do at that moment. If your wife is having a baby... that EV is going to really ruin your day. But if you are looking to grab a bite to eat, being able to fuel up quick isn't going to make much of a difference.
There is a difference between what works better for an individual vs. a design/engineering flaw.
I don't own an electric vehicle and have no intention on buying one, at least not in the foreseeable future, I made my living for over forty years turning wrenches on ICE engines, but I can see the handwriting on the wall, and the future is electric.
The ICE engine wasn't much to brag about in 1900, no indoor plumbing in 1920, the TV wasn't much to brag about in 1950, the computer wasn't much good in 1980, etc, etc, but there is such a thing as progress and with ALL of the majors mfgs getting heavy into electric, it is definitely tomorrow. 20 years from now electric will be everywhere, all connected together by computer and most likely self driving. No more traffic jams, rarely an accident, except for those old duffers driving ICE vehicles...
No more trips to the, by then, very hard to find filling station, charge at work, or home, or anywhere you happen to stop. Ain't progress wonderful? Don't fight it...!
I don't own an electric vehicle and have no intention on buying one, at least not in the foreseeable future, I made my living for over forty years turning wrenches on ICE engines, but I can see the handwriting on the wall, and the future is electric.
The ICE engine wasn't much to brag about in 1900, no indoor plumbing in 1920, the TV wasn't much to brag about in 1950, the computer wasn't much good in 1980, etc, etc, but there is such a thing as progress and with ALL of the majors mfgs getting heavy into electric, it is definitely tomorrow. 20 years from now electric will be everywhere, all connected together by computer and most likely self driving. No more traffic jams, rarely an accident, except for those old duffers driving ICE vehicles...
No more trips to the, by then, very hard to find filling station, charge at work, or home, or anywhere you happen to stop. Ain't progress wonderful? Don't fight it...!
WE were all supposed to have flying cars. It's 2019...
That said, yeah, I agree. Electric is coming, and by the time my car is "used up" (probably 8 years or so, I just bought it), I will most likely be faced with a bevy of viable EV options. This may be my last ICE vehicle.
Why are charging stations obsolete? Why wouldn't you want to be able to quickly charge your vehicle and with ample opportunities to do so?
I get that most people drive a commute and usually charge when parked at home, and sometimes at work, so there isn't the same need for fast charging in such situations, but then there are situations or at least the desire to be in situations where you're going on longer trips but don't want to spend as much time charging. Have you ever driven an EV on a long road trip before? It's a lot more convenient now than it was four years and that has a lot to do with having more fast charging stations. This gets better as charging stations become more ubiquitous, charging rates get faster, and range on a full charge get longer, all of which have been happening.
PHEVs aren't bad at all, but I don't get why PHEVs are necessarily going to remain the better technology for long trips. The electrical grid is pretty massive in the US.
Because BEV’s require massive batteries that are just an expensive and heavy cure for range anxiety. You don’t need to create a new charging infrastructure and fast charging and long range higher density batteries when you already have all the necessary technology right now to both have an ICE long range driving experience and the commuting efficiency of an EV.
EV’s are great for cheap city commuters that never intend to leave the city but inferior to long road trips. BEV’s are what people used 120 years ago. The future is PHEV. The sooner we drop the idea of a long range EV, the sooner more people will drop conventional ICE’s for electrified vehicles. Nobody tows boats and campers with a BEV and nobody ever will. It will be theoretically possible, but few people will actually do it. People want to stop whenever they want, wherever they want, for as long as they want. Long range BEV’s are more of a hobby than an actual practical road trip solution.
Hybrids are a transitional technology. They still require an ICE, which will eventually be phased out. For some people, an EV is their only vehicle. Charging stations aren't going anywhere any time soon. The technology will change from plug-in to wireless, but they'll be with us until we move on to the next propulsion system.
But there is no reason to phase out an ICE. Batteries have the worst energy density of any modern propulsion system. What you’re looking for is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. Lugging around a large expensive brick of batteries just for the occasional trip out of town is a huge waste in both efficiency and resources. It’s the equivalent of driving a Civic with a hundred gallon gas tank full of gas all the time. It’s retarded.
Because BEV’s require massive batteries that are just an expensive and heavy cure for range anxiety. You don’t need to create a new charging infrastructure and fast charging and long range higher density batteries when you already have all the necessary technology right now to both have an ICE long range driving experience and the commuting efficiency of an EV.
EV’s are great for cheap city commuters that never intend to leave the city but inferior to long road trips. BEV’s are what people used 120 years ago. The future is PHEV. The sooner we drop the idea of a long range EV, the sooner more people will drop conventional ICE’s for electrified vehicles. Nobody tows boats and campers with a BEV and nobody ever will. It will be theoretically possible, but few people will actually do it. People want to stop whenever they want, wherever they want, for as long as they want. Long range BEV’s are more of a hobby than an actual practical road trip solution.
Batteries for BEV usage have improved over time in regards to energy density by price, volume, and weight in production runs. It's not a perfectly fitted curve, but there's also little indication that these trend lines are going to hit a brick wall on all axes suddenly. Trend lines for such things, as in the case of just energy density by weight alone, have been doing exponential growth at a range of 5 to 8 percent per annum depending on how you measure such for a very long while now which has resulted in the bevy of consumer electronic devices that use rechargeable batteries today. As those continue to improve, you'll need to carry around less weight and volume of batteries for the same or greater range. Even at this point in time there are a decent number of people comfortable doing long road trips with certain models especially combined with charge rates that have also been greatly improved in production runs (and of course, more charge stations now exist).
PHEVs are great, but I'm not sure if it's actually a more pragmatic future. It's not just the trend lines for battery energy density by price, volume, and weight and faster charge rates as stated earlier, but also that electricity is a much more fungible power source that can easily be derived from many, many sources whereas the put-put generator in PHEVs generally have a pretty limited range in order to be efficient.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-31-2019 at 10:42 PM..
But there is no reason to phase out an ICE. Batteries have the worst energy density of any modern propulsion system. What you’re looking for is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. Lugging around a large expensive brick of batteries just for the occasional trip out of town is a huge waste in both efficiency and resources. It’s the equivalent of driving a Civic with a hundred gallon gas tank full of gas all the time. It’s retarded.
Why the obsession with Civics, this is a discussion of Self driving technology NOT ICE vs EV vs PEHV.
Maybe a reason to phase out ICE is pollution and efficiency because BEVs are far more efficient and far cheaper per mile to operate and can be operated with minimal pollution impact. A ICE hauls around 100lbs of gas and several hundreds of pounds of engine, exhaust and other support systems. A Tesla Model 3 at 3686 lbs and a BMW 330i at 3695 lbs weigh within 10 lbs of each other which means that BMW weighs more with both having a full tank, hardly lugging.
Back to topic - Lidar has the much the same issues with weather as cameras, they both use similar light spectrum. Studies suggest that Lidar is not needed for self driving;
Quote:
Using two inexpensive cameras on either side of a vehicle’s windshield, Cornell researchers have discovered they can detect objects with nearly LiDAR’s accuracy and at a fraction of the cost.
Here is another paper suggesting similar results; 3D Visual Perception for Self-Driving Cars using a Multi-Camera System: Calibration, Mapping, Localization, and Obstacle Detectionhttps://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.09839.pdf
But there is no reason to phase out an ICE. Batteries have the worst energy density of any modern propulsion system. What you’re looking for is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. Lugging around a large expensive brick of batteries just for the occasional trip out of town is a huge waste in both efficiency and resources. It’s the equivalent of driving a Civic with a hundred gallon gas tank full of gas all the time. It’s retarded.
Tell that to AOC and others of her ilk. Windmills and solar panels will never be a viable source of power, and yet they are a blight on our landscape. When the political tides shift, and shift they will, we will have all kinds of idiotic solutions thrust upon us to solve problems that don't exist. Look at how many people believe anthropogenic climate change is the existential crisis of our time.
Why the obsession with Civics, this is a discussion of Self driving technology NOT ICE vs EV vs PEHV.
Maybe a reason to phase out ICE is pollution and efficiency because BEVs are far more efficient and far cheaper per mile to operate and can be operated with minimal pollution impact. A ICE hauls around 100lbs of gas and several hundreds of pounds of engine, exhaust and other support systems. A Tesla Model 3 at 3686 lbs and a BMW 330i at 3695 lbs weigh within 10 lbs of each other which means that BMW weighs more with both having a full tank, hardly lugging.
Back to topic - Lidar has the much the same issues with weather as cameras, they both use similar light spectrum. Studies suggest that Lidar is not needed for self driving;
Here is another paper suggesting similar results; 3D Visual Perception for Self-Driving Cars using a Multi-Camera System: Calibration, Mapping, Localization, and Obstacle Detectionhttps://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.09839.pdf
Yea, as someone who has actually had to work with modern LIDAR units, likes them, and has had to bit**** raw data from it for various uses, LIDAR definitely has a lot of its own sets of issues.
If we're talking cameras for this kind of work, you also have to talk about placement of cameras, the number of cameras, and camera and lens intrinsics. There's a lot of photogrammetry innovations simply because they are so accessible as a raw data source so there are so many tools being pushed out on pretty much a daily basis. One of the issues I had with LIDAR, outside of environmental issues, is the relative dearth of existing work and models compared to plain ol' photogrammetry. I could literally be working on a cv portion of a project, set it down for a month or two, and then come back and find that whatever issue I had was solved or whatever hack or workaround I needed to do was obsolete.
Maybe SpaceX will become the sugar daddy that keeps paying for his automotive hobby. But those are all tech-for-tech's sake companies that don't involve the massively complex manufacturing and marketing dynamics of selling cars.
As I've said before, no amount of midnight code-slinging can fix factory or road problems.
People like you need to just calm down. Tesla is an AMERICAN company and we should all be proud that something like Tesla has gotten off the ground and into realty, and that regular American households talk about this company. It's not Chinese, it's not Mexican, not European, not from India, South Korea, not from Russia, but it's from OUR country.
People like you need to just calm down. Tesla is an AMERICAN company and we should all be proud that something like Tesla has gotten off the ground and into realty, and that regular American households talk about this company. It's not Chinese, it's not Mexican, not European, not from India, South Korea, not from Russia, but it's from OUR country.
That’s why I park my Tesla right next to my Harley. ‘Murica!
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