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Here's the main show stopper and it's not range. It's charging availability.
There are hundreds of thousands of gas stations across the US. But there are only dozens of charging station each state. You need many charging stations everywhere and I just don't see how it can be done when there's a power grid problem across America.
It takes 1-4hrs+ to charge an EV, it takes 7 mins avg to fill a ICE gas tank.
Do the math, how many charging station we would need to keep EVs on the road charged. Then there's a need for more additional tow trucks because people will run out of power and will need service.
There won't be an EV revolution for a very long time until existing power grid and charging infrastructure is improved. So for now, it's just a niche car that people only drive to work or groceries.
Yes, I agree, expanding charging infrastructure is the key, especially on the major Federal Highways.
Lots of opinions based on little actual experience. Try driving an EV for a couple of days, it does not take long to get used to it. You don't have to carefully plan where to charge, the car does it - frankly I have to plan stops at gas stations more than charging for an EV.
You've got a good point with many of these vehicles essentially plan optima charging stations along the destination you're heading to.
Though to be fair, like the poster you're quoting but even more so, you reside in an area where there are generally more options / locations in terms of fast charging stations along routes to places in the greater area and there's still a larger swath of the US which does not have such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frihed89
Yes, I agree, expanding charging infrastructure is the key, especially on the major Federal Highways.
The good thing is that charging stations aren't nearly as contentious or difficult to build as gas stations and so they've been popping up fairly rapidly. The map from five years ago for faster charging stations going from 43kW rates on up to 250kW is vastly different from that of today and those stations were pretty much nonexistent a decade ago.
Fast charging stations are great and necessary for greater mass adoption of EVs though the vast majority of EV charging is likely at home and work when cars are parked for most of the day since the vast majority of all vehicles spend the vast majority of time parked rather than in operation. So while there does need to be more and faster fast charging stations, fast charging stations don’t need to be nearly as ubiquitous to support the same number of EVs as ICE vehicles.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-02-2019 at 09:00 AM..
I disagree with a lot of pro-EV folks because they give a very narrow perspective. I've been driving a Prius for over 10 years. I would love to get an EV but I know living in NYC area it is virtually impossible to park let alone build a charging infrastructure with very limited land.
In very high population dense areas like NYC, parking spots are super scarce. Gas stations are also difficult to find in many neighborhoods in NYC. In order to provide charging they have to retrofit all parking meters with charging units.
The power grid situation here is also not very good, in recent weeks several neighborhoods had blackouts because consumption in NYC is too high. That means no charging when blackouts occur.
When Superstorm sandy hit NYC, no power for days and gas stations are using generators and it was already challenging to find gas stations without long lines and I can't imagine having to charge your EV.
Commuter trains that run electricity had to be docked and diesel trains were brought back in service.
Just surviving those 2 weeks without electricity was a very tall order. I'm glad that I have gas so we still have hot water and cooking. Generator to keep our fridge running.
We are far from an EV revolution with such a fragile grid.
I disagree with a lot of pro-EV folks because they give a very narrow perspective. I've been driving a Prius for over 10 years. I would love to get an EV but I know living in NYC area it is virtually impossible to park let alone build a charging infrastructure with very limited land.
In very high population dense areas like NYC, parking spots are super scarce. Gas stations are also difficult to find in many neighborhoods in NYC. In order to provide charging they have to retrofit all parking meters with charging units.
The power grid situation here is also not very good, in recent weeks several neighborhoods had blackouts because consumption in NYC is too high. That means no charging when blackouts occur.
When Superstorm sandy hit NYC, no power for days and gas stations are using generators and it was already challenging to find gas stations without long lines and I can't imagine having to charge your EV.
Commuter trains that run electricity had to be docked and diesel trains were brought back in service.
Just surviving those 2 weeks without electricity was a very tall order. I'm glad that I have gas so we still have hot water and cooking. Generator to keep our fridge running.
We are far from an EV revolution with such a fragile grid.
Your point about the grid needing to stay up is good, and that does need to happen. If that is a primary concern and you live in a single family home, then you may want to consider solar panels since that would partially allay concerns for you in particular of not just charging the electric vehicle, but providing your home with electricity as well.
As for charging infrastructure for those not living in SFHs, NYC has been expanding its charging infrastructure and it’s fairly common for newer building or renovations of areas with parking garages to have charging stations. NYC is also trying to pilot charging infrastructure using the electrical connection of street lights. These are meant for the really fast charging contingent, but more for those who are parking there cars for a bit.
When Superstorm sandy hit NYC, no power for days and gas stations are using generators and it was already challenging to find gas stations without long lines and I can't imagine having to charge your EV.
Holy Weather Channel hype, Batman! Superstorm Sandy? It was barely an 80 mph Category 1 when it hit Atlantic City. The highest gusts weren't even 90 mph.
If you didn't have a full charge in your EV before a hurricane hit where it was the only thing in the news for the previous 3 days, you deserve to be a pedestrian. With a hurricane watch, I'm hauling the boat, getting the dinghy off the dinghy dock, pulling the plywood panels out of the garage so I can quickly board up windows and doors, and stashing anything in the yard that might blow away. Make sure the chainsaw runs. Check for lamp oil. Top up the gas tank and fill the gas cans.
You can fill your car with gas in a few minutes. Even if there were charging stations all over and a lot of electric cars the stations would fill up quickly with cars that sit there forever charging.
Holy Weather Channel hype, Batman! Superstorm Sandy? It was barely an 80 mph Category 1 when it hit Atlantic City. The highest gusts weren't even 90 mph.
If you didn't have a full charge in your EV before a hurricane hit where it was the only thing in the news for the previous 3 days, you deserve to be a pedestrian. With a hurricane watch, I'm hauling the boat, getting the dinghy off the dinghy dock, pulling the plywood panels out of the garage so I can quickly board up windows and doors, and stashing anything in the yard that might blow away. Make sure the chainsaw runs. Check for lamp oil. Top up the gas tank and fill the gas cans.
Cost estimate documentation of running electric cars has got to be much more definitive. An example of this is estimates of mile per kilowatt hour are based on 11 cents per kWh generally. However 9 states contain more then half of Americas population electric rates are substantially more costly then that. See link below. On that same subject the efficiency of charging systems can also vary greatly from 70% to 90% efficiency which can add another 20% of cost per charge. Cold weather add another 30 to 50% hot weather add another 30 to 50% to the cost of usage. As the electric companies take on more electric loads and are forced to build new plants will their rates also go up. Have EV manufactures published any of those estimates?
After 200,000 EV's sold the EV maker loses the customer tax incentive is that additional cost being considered in the cost per mile.
The charging stations along your route will also be commercial ventures sometimes run by governments sometimes run by private enterprise so expect to pay a premium for the service. Are they or will they be price regulated and safety inspected and with meters monitored.
Last 97 million people live along the coastline of America. Also 33% of Americans are renters.
Hurricanes and evacuations have been brought out already in this discussion. I'd like to bring up a new another point which needs to be discussed about electric cars. The subject of salt on the roads and the problems which salt will present to electric car manufactures, Have there been studies along this line. An example of such problems is homes along the coastline and there special problems with the salt sea mist. Air conditioner condenser lifetimes are cut in half. Had a business on one of the only drivable beaches in the Florida years ago which I rented 4 wheel ATV's to the public. In one year new ATVs were reduced to rusted junk with the assist of the salt environment.
I'm actually more concerned with the electrical components of the Ev's and how the will hold up under such conditions.
Then there is the special dangers which EV owners may not have considered.
Having been an industrial electrician doing maintenance for years. I have regularly praised electric motors and there control,and longevity. EV cars however introduce a number of problem and variables that are not faced by stationary industrial motors in temperature controlled environments. I'd guess that battery powered fork trucks would be their closest cousin. But again electric fork trucks have had the advantage of a local charging station, and an environment mostly without pot holes or weather. From my experience propane fork trucks are more popular then electric fork trucks but I will do the research to be sure .
You can fill your car with gas in a few minutes. Even if there were charging stations all over and a lot of electric cars the stations would fill up quickly with cars that sit there forever charging.
Yeah, it doesn't seem like the time to recharge your EV will ever be as quick as just filling up your vehicle with gas or diesel. In order for the EV's to really "destroy" the ICE, they just have to make an electirc vehicle that can go 1,000 miles (or more) on a single charge!
You can fill your car with gas in a few minutes. Even if there were charging stations all over and a lot of electric cars the stations would fill up quickly with cars that sit there forever charging.
Again, MOST EVs charge at HOME overnight. They don't NEED charging stations out and about in town because they simply don't GO far enough during the day to NEED it. MOST people drive less than 40 miles in a day. Only the occasional road trip (and trust me, they are MUCH rare than you think) needs a destination charger.
I live with one that has a 40 mile nominal range and except for the semi-annual road trip to upstate NY, I never exceed that range and that includes commuting every day and trips from the suburbs to the city center and back. A 100-200 mile range EV would suffice for the majority of people the majority of the time.
A Chevy Bolt has enough range to go from Baltimore to NYC. How often do you or anyone drive that far on a regular basis?
Again, MOST EVs charge at HOME overnight. They don't NEED charging stations out and about in town because they simply don't GO far enough during the day to NEED it. MOST people drive less than 40 miles in a day. Only the occasional road trip (and trust me, they are MUCH rare than you think) needs a destination charger.
I live with one that has a 40 mile nominal range and except for the semi-annual road trip to upstate NY, I never exceed that range and that includes commuting every day and trips from the suburbs to the city center and back. A 100-200 mile range EV would suffice for the majority of people the majority of the time.
A Chevy Bolt has enough range to go from Baltimore to NYC. How often do you or anyone drive that far on a regular basis?
Yup - Simply a very different scenario than the ICE. It will have to unfold. Lots of interesting pieces.
How will it be done in the dense cities? Infrastructure problems from the electric distribution system to access to overnight charging. And even the suburbs may have power distribution problems. The sun belt will probably be OK in that it is likely that the thing can be coordinated with the AC load. And then again we may see wide adoption of the roof top array.
And there is opportunity in some of this. All those batteries could end up a resource in the power distribution systems.
And if the battery people pull off some of the latest techniques we could end up with practical electric storage on a utility scale.
Going to be an interesting couple of decades.
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There is a lot to be learned about EV's yet.
