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I did know about the hardware change, but that’s wasn’t a battery improvement, that was swapping the drive which akin to putting a more efficient transmission and differential in an ICE without changing the engine. The battery itself hasn’t improved.
I don’t speak for everyone but neither do you. The topic is what has to happen to get EVs to become the dominate drivetrain in car sales. EV enthusiast that hang out on EV forums and websites seem to have ended up in an echo chamber where they think EV adoption is a forgone conclusion. In reality, looking at what people actually buy, this doesn’t seem to be the case. Sales trends tend to indicate people want a “jack of all trades” type of vehicles that replace owning several different specialized vehicles.
The idea of “I’ll have a $100k electric vehicle that can tow small loads with more stops and only along dedictated freeways with a handful of pull through stations for when I want to save on fuel cost, and an ICE powered truck that can tow more and go anywhere pull over less often, and cost less but cost more in gas” is probably not representative of the average thought, don’t you agree?
I’m sure when you bought your Model X, it was not it’s towing capability that won you over but other subjective factors and towing capability was just something you made work.
Changing the motor is CHANGING the ENGINE - EVs don't have a transmission in the normal sense. The battery is the tank - didn't need improving to get the results - quit with your narrative that is wrong.
I’ve yet to be proven wrong, especially by you. You’ve simply stated the Model 3 and Model S uses different cells. So do my flashlights. Try again.
READ the Article, it states that the model 3 cells provide almost double the capacity. You have been wrong more often than right, your narrative is wrong. Again you attack personally rather than accept facts. You do not want to listen or try to understand a different point of view.
Changing the motor is CHANGING the ENGINE - EVs don't have a transmission in the normal sense. The battery is the tank - didn't need improving to get the results - quit with your narrative that is wrong.
Still reaching I see. The motor doesn’t create energy like an engine. The “engine” is the power plant making electricity. If you want to play semantics, the “fuel tank” has horrible energy density and gas not been improved.
READ the Article, it states that the model 3 cells provide almost double the capacity. You have been wrong more often than right, your narrative is wrong. Again you attack personally rather than accept facts. You do not want to listen or try to understand a different point of view.
You have been struggling to make this connection but doing a horrible job and it’s you that has still yet to prove anything so you can stop with the score keeping. If the battery is “double the capacity”, why does the Model S and X still use such a poor battery design? And why doesn’t the Model 3 go further? By your rationale it should go 600 miles instead of 300.
Now go read some more on the internet and try again.
I don't think I've seen this mentioned (although I haven't read every single post), but it's much easier to add charging stations than gas stations. No excavation, no capital invested in tanks, no environmental cleanup costs, no truck deliveries. Thus, as electric cars take off we can expect a fairly rapid rollout of charging stations, particularly in densely populated areas.
I don't think I've seen this mentioned (although I haven't read every single post), but it's much easier to add charging stations than gas stations. No excavation, no capital invested in tanks, no environmental cleanup costs, no truck deliveries. Thus, as electric cars take off we can expect a fairly rapid rollout of charging stations, particularly in densely populated areas.
Sorta. It’s a bit of a chicken or the egg thing. DC fast chargers are fairly expensive at about $120k per charger. https://biznetwork.touchstoneenergy....arging-station
That’s not a huge deal if demand is high, but for roads less traveled, it wouldn’t be justified for the occasional EV traveler. EVs would probably not take those roads because there's no charging stations.
Remember that charging stations have to compete with home charging unlike a small town gas station that doesn’t have to compete with home refueling.
I stated something that happened and provided a link and it’s a few months old. Now you’re just sounding desperate.
Let's go over what the sequence of posts were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
You’re buying into sales hype and passing it off as fact. https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-not-convinced
Tesla Model X was proven to be terrible at towing. Range degraded too much to make the current spacing between charging stations and there’s no pull through charging stalls to accommodate a trailer anyway.
Long trips can be done but are far from easy. You’ve convinced yourself that’s it’s a good idea to randomly stop frequently on a predetermined route on interstates only with no detours, in compact car, but don’t pretend it’s as easy as any other vehicle.
An old link from 2016, right? Complaints about the Model X's actual range and also how there were not enough charging stations and no pull through charging stalls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Again with this link from 2016. There are many more and much faster charging stations in the three years since and the range for the Model X has increased.
Are there issues? Sure. Here’s a more recent towing trip: https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-superchargers It’s slightly different today from then but this is much more recent than the link you posted. The difference is that there are more charging stations and the range rating for that model is now 325 miles instead of the 295 miles rating with the same size battery pack and charging rates for these models are now slightly higher.
This is my response and said that between the date of that link in April of this year and now, the Model X went from 295 miles to 325 miles with the same battery pack and now has a faster max charging rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100
But still no pull through chargers. I’m about to tow a boat to a remote lake this weekend. No charging stations at all along the way (majority is US highways). Nothing like buying a tow vehicle with restrictions like “only if you stick to interstates”. Thus it still sucks at towing.
I want to caution you on Tesla’s “range improvements”. Most likely Tesla is just allowing you to use the “guarded range” of the battery. As in, before 0 charge really meant you had 40 miles or so left, now it could simply mean 0 miles left. This was evident when Tesla pushed a software update that gave people more range magically overnight.
Absolutely, still no pull through chargers so you either unhitch or you have a stall where you can take up multiple spaces. However, you then put up something about range improvements being chimerical because they're using more of the guarded range. Unfortunately, the link you used is the one below.
March of this year so it's better, but unfortunately talks about both a different car, a model 3 instead of a X, and a different improvement made than the one I mentioned which was the change between April and now in the Model X where they changed the motor. That's not moving the guards on the range, but a completely different change. Also, if you actually read the link you posted, the rationale put forth by Tesla was that they were able to make it more efficient safely while the link guesses it's because they wanted to originally put some value difference between the Model 3 and Model S for sales purposes since the range bump was only bumped to match the EPA rating that the Model 3 had in the first place. And so what if they did eat into the guarded range? If they have a lot more data than they did during launch and it turned out the guarded range was conservative than necessary for safety and battery life, then they should allow it for usage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo302
Towing with that sounds like a terrible idea, given the alternatives. At least you are towing something light and easy and not that often.
No doubt that mid-range and long-range towing isn't as good with the Model X right now as it is with some ICE vehicles. So for the purpose of this topic, you have to judge how much of a dealbreaker that currently is for the mass market as a whole. It offers the option, but you also measure its inconvenience for some use cases versus other advantages. I definitely know some people with vehicles with some towing ability, but have never used their vehicles for towing.
Regardless, the Model X debuted in 2015 with a top range of 257 miles of range and today in 2019 has a top range of 325 miles, faster charge rates, and many, many more publicly available chargers. While the use case you're talking about is a minority in terms of how people use their cars, it's apparent that EVs are improving for the use case you're talking about. It's doubtful that there won't continue to be range increases and better and more ubiquitous chargers.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-01-2019 at 09:34 AM..
The general public needs confidence and familiarization with the products.
The general public needs confidence and familiarization with the products. Just like the microwaves, computers, 8-tracks, and flat screens we are only seeing the beginning of E.V.'s. The difference being the cost is 30 to 60 plus times as much as all the previous gadgets. With that kind money on the line caution prevails. It is the most expensive gadget most people have ever bought.
Here is guy who has started from scratch 4 years ago rebuilding burned and wrecked Tesla's on You-tube. He now has 570,000 subscribers and 140 videos. If you are considering an electric car purchase I would watch this guys videos.
An old link from 2016, right? Complaints about the Model X's actual range and also how there were not enough charging stations and no pull through charging stalls.
This is my response and said that between the date of that link in April of this year and now, the Model X went from 295 miles to 325 miles with the same battery pack and now has a faster max charging rate.
Absolutely, still no pull through chargers so you either unhitch or you have a stall where you can take up multiple spaces. However, you then put up something about range improvements being chimerical because they're using more of the guarded range. Unfortunately, the link you used is the one below.
March of this year so it's better, but unfortunately talks about both a different car, a model 3 instead of a X, and a different improvement made than the one I mentioned which was the change between April and now in the Model X where they changed the motor. That's not moving the guards on the range, but a completely different change. Also, if you actually read the link you posted, the rationale put forth by Tesla was that they were able to make it more efficient safely while the link guesses it's because they wanted to originally put some value difference between the Model 3 and Model S for sales purposes since the range bump was only bumped to match the EPA rating that the Model 3 had in the first place. And so what if they did eat into the guarded range? If they have a lot more data than they did during launch and it turned out the guarded range was conservative than necessary for safety and battery life, then they should allow it for usage.
No doubt that mid-range and long-range towing isn't as good with the Model X as with some ICE vehicles. So for the purpose of this topic, you have to judge how much of a dealbreaker that currently is for the mass market as a whole.
Regardless, the Model X debuted in 2015 with a top range of 257 miles of range and today in 2019 has a top range of 325 miles, faster charge rates, and many, many more publicly available chargers. While the use case you're talking about is a minority in terms of how people use their cars, it's apparent that EVs are improving for the use case you're talking about. It's doubtful that there won't continue to be range increases and better and more ubiquitous chargers.
You’ve essentially agreed with me so far. Despite claims that battery density improved 40%, the Model X range only improved about 20% even though most of the changes were simply software displaying arbitrary range information and improved motor efficiency. I doubt that reducing the guarded range was done due to discovering excess conservatism as the Tesla with the most known miles had to change their battery twice in 400k miles. https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/11...-x-amp-model-3
Anyone familiar with Tesla, knows to take their claims with a grain of salt. They have great PR spin that people
confuse with education.
Yes, I concede they have made some improvements one way or the other in range and charging station additions and improvements. The point however is that those improvements are only in specific routes and are not ubiquitous at all. To add the myriad of different charging types and speeds and spacing, one also has to contend with if they have pull through chargers as well. I know you think the key is to make even more charging stations, but as I’ve pointed to in my last post, the majority of non interstate highways may never see a charging network due to the “chicken or the egg” dilemma. Thus the Model X as a towing vehicle will remain be a poor choice for years to come. Long range EV’s can’t simply be the answer everybody is looking for.
You’ve essentially agreed with me so far. Despite claims that battery density improved 40%, the Model X range only improved about 20% even though most of the changes were simply software displaying arbitrary range information and improved motor efficiency. I doubt that reducing the guarded range was done due to discovering excess conservatism as the Tesla with the most known miles had to change their battery twice in 400k miles. https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/11...-x-amp-model-3
Anyone familiar with Tesla, knows to take their claims with a grain of salt. They have great PR spin that people
confuse with education.
Yes, I concede they have made some improvements one way or the other in range and charging station additions and improvements. The point however is that those improvements are only in specific routes and are not ubiquitous at all. To add the myriad of different charging types and speeds and spacing, one also has to contend with if they have pull through chargers as well. I know you think the key is to make even more charging stations, but as I’ve pointed to in my last post, the majority of non interstate highways may never see a charging network due to the “chicken or the egg” dilemma. Thus the Model X as a towing vehicle will remain be a poor choice for years to come. Long range EV’s can’t simply be the answer everybody is looking for.
No, that’s you either intentionally or accidentally misreading things. You cited both a different car and the wrong reason. You also seem to understand a few things here—density improvements aren’t going to be perfectly mapped year to year to a rate. The extrapolation is for averages. This is because these improvements get rolled in a step-wise fashion since that’s how mass production usually works. There are some processes that can be rolled out in a faster incremental fashion and others that require actually setting up new production lines for new processes.
You aren’t familiar with Tesla, as you seem to conflate a lot of different things together and apparently have never driven one.
No one needs you to concede anything. The range has been increasing and will continue to do so. Faster chargers and larger numbers of them will keep coming out. In regards to charging stations that are specifically built to accommodate towing, those are probably going to have to wait until there are more models of EVs rated / suitable for towing. They will likely never be the majority of charging stations though, because a lot of charging stations are built into parking lots and parking garages which don’t have towing in mind. With people who do use the towing capability now, they’re likely using it for a fairly small proportion of time spent in the vehicle, so there’s a trade-off there since the currently more cumbersome mid to long range towing situation for Model X is likely just a minor proportion of the usage. The ability is there, but cumbersome and there are other things the vehicle is used for. I also can’t see how you came to the conclusion that the majority of non interstate highways will not see a charger.
The most salient point is still that EVs as they are now are a good fit for the majority of vehicle usage and have some existing advantages today over ICE vehicles, and it’s simply going to continue tipping even further towards EVs for the near future.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-01-2019 at 12:10 PM..
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The general public needs confidence and familiarization with the products.
