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I still don't get why companies don't focus on a very good hybrid approach. Current Toyota Priuses are very practical cars and gets over 50mpg. The Volt gets over 100mpg with charging. If companies focus on a building a good plugin hybrid, it will offer the best of both worlds.
I can drive close to 500mi on my Prius with just 8 gallons of gas, it takes less than 5mins to refuel a Prius. Any Tesla could only get 1/2 of that during the summer with the A/C running and had to stop for another 1-2 hours to charge up before they can go another 200mi. 1-2 hours of stoppage is a huge setback during long distance travel.
They certainly tried and Toyota was and still is moderately successful (much more so in Japan where hybrids make up about 1 in 5 new car sales), but I guess people weren't buying enough to stop the Volt from being dropped which was a good plugin hybrid. Hybrids will almost certainly continue to be made though and they'll be better as the EV side of things improve like their motors, batteries, and onboard chargers.
Like I said, I don’t think that’s a frequent use case for most people. However, the scenario you’re painting is also pretty easily within reach over the next several years. Recall the difference between the release of the first gen Nissan Leaf in 2010 and the second gen in 2017 (model year 2011 and 2018). That’s a massive difference though still not compelling enough to most. The range has essentially doubled, the price has stayed the same (or lower with inflation), charge rates are an order of magnitude as there wasn’t even fast charging at the time and far more ubiquitous.
It’s 2019 and things like dollars per kWh of capacity and increase in fast charging rates are actually improving faster than most have projected. Batteries are, after all, the most important component and the markets investing in such is far larger than just automakers. The parameters you’re asking for, while I think is more than what the vast majority use cases are, are themselves pretty likely to be reached in the next several years if not sooner. So why the switch especially if you’re someone who either does not believe in or does not care about global climate change or tailpipe emissions concentrated in urban areas? Well, there are a number of other factors that will weigh in favor of EVs like reduced maintenance costs, lower cost of operation per mile, the ability to start the day or end of work with full range, more immediately available torque, greater interior volume for the same exterior space and eventually lower base costs at point of purchase.
Promises, promises. Are electric rates also going to decline?
I still don't get why companies don't focus on a very good hybrid approach. Current Toyota Priuses are very practical cars and gets over 50mpg. The Volt gets over 100mpg with charging. If companies focus on a building a good plugin hybrid, it will offer the best of both worlds.
I can drive close to 500mi on my Prius with just 8 gallons of gas, it takes less than 5mins to refuel a Prius. Any Tesla could only get 1/2 of that during the summer with the A/C running and had to stop for another 1-2 hours to charge up before they can go another 200mi. 1-2 hours of stoppage is a huge setback during long distance travel.
Hybrids have not been abandoned, and they are increasing in offerings still. As a single guy with a 1-car household, a standard hybrid (non-plugin) is what I am most interested in today. Just need to find a hybrid package offered at a reasonable price premium (< $4,000) in a car I want. The 2020 CR-V might be that car, for me.
Promises, promises. Are electric rates also going to decline?
Promises and projections based on technological and industrial trends of the recent past are somewhat different. What promises are you thinking of? You can look up 2011 Nissan Leaf and 2018 Nissan Leaf stats online and see that there’s a vast difference. The 2018 base price was even lower than the 2011 one despite the many improvements and inflation. I don’t understand why you seem to be so down on EVs. Did you get burned by a purchase?
I don’t think there’s any indication that electric rates are going to go down anytime soon.
Promises and projections based on technological and industrial trends of the recent past are somewhat different. What promises are you thinking of? You can look up 2011 Nissan Leaf and 2018 Nissan Leaf stats online and see that there’s a vast difference. The 2018 base price was even lower than the 2011 one despite the many improvements and inflation. I don’t understand why you seem to be so down on EVs. Did you get burned by a purchase?
I don’t think there’s any indication that electric rates are going to go down anytime soon.
I'm not down on EV's in general - they can have a place but they are not the do-all, end-all that their virulent proponents claim. Many of those people refuse to look at the topic without blinders on. They refuse to acknowledge the drawbacks and limitations of what is available today.
Simply pointing out high expense, limited range and logistical complications of recharging as current detriments of plug-in models arouses their ire and illogical defensiveness. Many will refuse to address today's problems but will avidly tout what is promised for the future whether attainable or not.
I am also not ready to accept the reverence many EV proponents have for the leader of the big exclusive EV company, a lawbreaker, false promiser and a failure at delivering both vehicles and profits.
Perhaps people who only read headlines could be burned by a purchase, but I am certainly not in that group. But, on second thought, how could anyone "get burned by a purchase" of such wonderful things?
I'm not down on EV's in general - they can have a place but they are not the do-all, end-all that their virulent proponents claim. Many of those people refuse to look at the topic without blinders on. They refuse to acknowledge the drawbacks and limitations of what is available today.
Simply pointing out high expense, limited range and logistical complications of recharging as current detriments of plug-in models arouses their ire and illogical defensiveness. Many will refuse to address today's problems but will avidly tout what is promised for the future whether attainable or not.
I am also not ready to accept the reverence many EV proponents have for the leader of the big exclusive EV company, a lawbreaker, false promiser and a failure at delivering both vehicles and profits.
Perhaps people who only read headlines could be burned by a purchase, but I am certainly not in that group. But, on second thought, how could anyone "get burned by a purchase" of such wonderful things?
Yea, I agree people who don't take into consideration or are dishonest about their drawbacks today are pretty much just spreading disinformation which is never a good thing. It's the same take I have for people who either aren't taking into consideration or are being dishonest about their advantages that arouse the ire and illogical defensiveness of people who for some reason or another are against EVs--they're all a bunch of knuckleheads. I think one thing that differentiates the two groups is that generally people who argue on the side of EVs have at this point driven ICE cars and have real world comparisons between the two and are pretty viscerally aware of the differences in a way someone theorizing about the comparison having not driven or owned both would not.
What you have today are EVs that are competitive within certain market segments and it depends on their use cases. For some, EVs are better. Given how quickly EVs have been advancing in a short span of time and how the components crucial to EVs have advanced in the last several decades, it seems likely they'll cover a lot more use cases better in several years while they've also been doing the same in the past several years.
Relevant to the topic is the logistical complications of recharging--yea, they exist and pretty much the topic in question helps alleviate that. This is literally a topic about a company that's rolling out more fast charging stations.
Yea, I agree people who don't take into consideration or are dishonest about their drawbacks today are pretty much just spreading disinformation which is never a good thing. It's the same take I have for people who either aren't taking into consideration or are being dishonest about their advantages that arouse the ire and illogical defensiveness of people who for some reason or another are against EVs--they're all a bunch of knuckleheads. I think one thing that differentiates the two groups is that generally people who argue on the side of EVs have at this point driven ICE cars and have real world comparisons between the two and are pretty viscerally aware of the differences in a way someone theorizing about the comparison having not driven or owned both would not.
What you have today are EVs that are competitive within certain market segments and it depends on their use cases. For some, EVs are better. Given how quickly EVs have been advancing in a short span of time and how the components crucial to EVs have advanced in the last several decades, it seems likely they'll cover a lot more use cases better in several years while they've also been doing the same in the past several years.
Relevant to the topic is the logistical complications of recharging--yea, they exist and pretty much the topic in question helps alleviate that. This is literally a topic about a company that's rolling out more fast charging stations.
Also relevant to the conversation, and problematic, is the use of public funds to install for profit charging stations at which the public entity will not share revenues. In my area local government paid in excess of $40,000 to have two stations installed able to service two cars each. Six prime parking spaces were sacrificed at a beach area visited only for about three months by any appreciable number of cars.
A normal cost/benefit analysis would no doubt negate such an installation but since the people were paying the operators had no risk. Visiting the beach more than a dozen times in the past few months showed only one vehicle parked in the spots - a normal gasoline powered vehicle with a handicapped pass whose operator apparently mistook the green painted spots for blue painted handicapped areas.
Also relevant to the conversation, and problematic, is the use of public funds to install for profit charging stations at which the public entity will not share revenues. In my area local government paid in excess of $40,000 to have two stations installed able to service two cars each. Six prime parking spaces were sacrificed at a beach area visited only for about three months by any appreciable number of cars.
A normal cost/benefit analysis would no doubt negate such an installation but since the people were paying the operators had no risk. Visiting the beach more than a dozen times in the past few months showed only one vehicle parked in the spots - a normal gasoline powered vehicle with a handicapped pass whose operator apparently mistook the green painted spots for blue painted handicapped areas.
I agree that's problematic. If the municipality wants to encourage EV adoption, then allowing for the stations to be there is already quite good--not getting any revenue for it is not. Do you know how long of an agreement this is? Did the municipality take on the full cost of installation?
Also relevant to the conversation, and problematic, is the use of public funds to install for profit charging stations at which the public entity will not share revenues. In my area local government paid in excess of $40,000 to have two stations installed able to service two cars each. Six prime parking spaces were sacrificed at a beach area visited only for about three months by any appreciable number of cars.
A normal cost/benefit analysis would no doubt negate such an installation but since the people were paying the operators had no risk. Visiting the beach more than a dozen times in the past few months showed only one vehicle parked in the spots - a normal gasoline powered vehicle with a handicapped pass whose operator apparently mistook the green painted spots for blue painted handicapped areas.
How did they pay 40 grand to install 4 chargers? Commercial chargers are only $800-1750 each. That's $7k for 4 of them at the highest price:
Just because your municipality got ripped off and didn't do their homework doesn't make EVs bad or not ready for primetime.
One company here installs commercial chargers for $1000 labor per charger (which includes hooking it to Muni power), That would have added $4k to the $7k cost of the more expensive individual chargers. Nowhere NEAR $40k.
Just because your municipality got ripped off and didn't do their homework doesn't make EVs bad or not ready for primetime.
One company here installs commercial chargers for $1000 labor per charger (which includes hooking it to Muni power), That would have added $4k to the $7k cost of the more expensive individual chargers. Nowhere NEAR $40k.
Maybe he'll post a link to this thing. The chargers you're pointing out aren't DC fast chargers, but Level 2 chargers. Maybe the ones he's citing are top of the line DC fast chargers and include handjobs. I wonder what the configuration was like that four charging spots took up six parking spots.
Anyhow, higher end Level 2 chargers are generally good enough and they're pretty cheap and most people wouldn't put up a fuss about it going into a parking space or parking garage directly next to businesses, offices, or residences in a way they might for gas stations. I'm guessing that level 2 single-phase chargers with their max at 7kW even outside individual residences are probably going to be the more common go-to for charging rather than DC fast chargers since they can be really, really common really quickly and few people are fully charging from completely empty to completely full.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-24-2019 at 01:37 PM..
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