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What are you saying?? I was replying to your statement that most EV user over buy battery. I can tell you that I have not over bought. It is perfect for Denver to Vail winter commuting.
I was referring to long term reliability in cold weather environments.
It's not so much the interior as the drive train and engineering. Probably most equivalent to a BMW M5. Even with the range upgrade and performance upgrade, you're well below the $100k pricetag. I can tell that you're still learning about cars in general. This is a great place to start learning, but I suggest you study the vehicle themselves a bit more.
If I’m gonna spend “below 100k pricetag”....that electric vehicle better do everything my current car can do. And it better cost about the same. Until then I’ll keep what I got or buy a comparable ICE vehicle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by corolla5speed
The battery is not free and it can't be compaired to a $100 fuel tank of an ice car. The battery cost information is available to anyone via the O.E.M. after having it replaced. Here is what the United States International Trade Commission says the batteries cost.
Note, Add to that the charger at the house with install costs.
Now add tax and a highly possible solar charging install.
So the cost of this additional fuel container and various accessories, taxes and earned income which has already been taxed to pay for all these extra goodies and your at ten grand up front.
Remember that's only the electric fuel tank and a few accessories. The fuel tank on I.C.E. cars are much more of a bargain in comparison. Here is an example.
Yes E.V's have many great attributes but this is about overlooked costs during E.V. purchases.
That’s why electric cars are a nonstarter for me. I don't want the cost of a charging station in my house right now, and I don’t want a car that can’t do what my current car does or cost 100,000 dollars.
Last edited by Electrician4you; 10-13-2019 at 08:20 PM..
It's not so much the interior as the drive train and engineering. Probably most equivalent to a BMW M5. Even with the range upgrade and performance upgrade, you're well below the $100k pricetag. I can tell that you're still learning about cars in general. This is a great place to start learning, but I suggest you study the vehicle themselves a bit more.
The engineering might impress people who don’t know any better, but good engineering is maximizing power while minimizing weight. Tesla is the only company I know of that requires you to have a heavier car with unnecessary range prior to offering a performance upgrade.
I was referring to long term reliability in cold weather environments.
The data I have read suggest no diminished life on the battery, but you do get less mileage when driving in the cold, up a hill, with the heater going. Again, lots of Denver-Vail threads out there on Tesla forums.
What skews the data is the fact that modern EV batteries are vastly oversized and most are only using 10% of the battery for commuting while they've paid for 90% more battery than they actually needed. The users in cold climates are generally coming from Norway where that vast majority of the population is urban with shorter commutes.
You have no idea what you are talking about, you just seem to be making stuff up. Many EVs have range of under 100 miles, only Tesla's and Bolt get much over 200 miles. Most do NOT use ONLY 10%, you are projecting - 10% of the battery would get you less than 10 miles on many and only about 25 on the longest range ones with no reserve range or for making other stops. Do you drive your ICE vehicle down to 0 miles?
According to ABC News survey, the average American drives 16 miles to work each way, with a daily commute totaling nearly an hour round trip - 10% will not work for the average commuter. About 3.5 million commute over 50 miles each way, they need way larger than 10%. I had a Leaf that I used to commute with 82 mile rated range, it was very close some days with less than 5 miles left when I got home.
There are many users who use EVs to commute in cold climates climates in the US, probably more than in Norway. Also in Norway, most use an EV for longer trips because EVs get a large break on tolls and much cheaper to fill there. I use the bigger battery all the time, probably 3/4 of the miles on my vehicle are from trips over 100 miles (most over 300 miles).
The engineering might impress people who don’t know any better, but good engineering is maximizing power while minimizing weight. Tesla is the only company I know of that requires you to have a heavier car with unnecessary range prior to offering a performance upgrade.
We have been through this before, the BMW and Tesla 3 are almost the same weight even though the Tesla is a bigger car, so not heavier. Also cutting battery size also cuts how much current you can draw out of the battery - so smaller battery would also be slower.
The OP's numbers seemed to be cherry-picked from source to source, but at least they tried to get source information rather than pulling figures from thin air. I have a wide variety of acquired used vehicles including a small turbodiesel, a heavy duty turbodiesel truck, gas-electric hybrid, a short-range 83 mile BEV, and a long-range 240 mile BEV. I ran all the numbers and the electric cars are by far the cheapest in fuel cost and virtually zero in maintenance in repair. The problem is that I have no idea how to project the life of the vehicle. I've had zero issues with the traction battery on the BEV and hybrid even after a combined 350K miles spread amongst the three vehicles. The Lexus Rx400h gets about 40% more MPG than it's ICE counterpart and uses a 1.3kWh NiMH battery. Dealership price of replacement is $6K, though remanufactured packs are only $1,200 at our local indy shops. Clearly some packs will need to replaced eventually, but there seems to be very few datapoints on that.
The other issue with calculated cost of ownership is the numerous free EV charging available and the arbitrage of time-of-use rates with roof-top solar. I sunk $10K out of pocket for a 4.8kW solar array. I'm using about 13MwH of electricity and pay about $200 a year for electricity...that comes out to $.016 per kWh. The solar array is rated for 25 year lifecycle though I would imagine a decrease in production as the years go on. Electricity rates and time-of-use segments are subject to change as well.
Thanks for an objective and informative summary. The varying battery prices have got to reflect quality and longevity.
Here is an article on Investopedia claiming battery cost of an E.V. being a very high percentage of the cars overall price.
The battery is not free and it can't be compaired to a $100 fuel tank of an ice car. The battery cost information is available to anyone via the O.E.M. after having it replaced. Here is what the United States International Trade Commission says the batteries cost.
Note, Add to that the charger at the house with install costs.
Now add tax and a highly possible solar charging install.
So the cost of this additional fuel container and various accessories, taxes and earned income which has already been taxed to pay for all these extra goodies and your at ten grand up front.
Remember that's only the electric fuel tank and a few accessories. The fuel tank on I.C.E. cars are much more of a bargain in comparison. Here is an example.
Yes E.V's have many great attributes but this is about overlooked costs during E.V. purchases.
A Battery and a fuel tank are NOT the same - a gas tank holds potential energy (must be converted to be used) while a battery holds actual energy (already converted). An ICE vehicle needs to use an engine to convert potential to rotational energy (at about 20% efficiency) while an EV just needs to convert electrical charge to rotational energy (at about 95% efficiency).
The USITC doesn't produce batteries and those costs are out of date - but the batteries DO NOT NEED to be replaced, current projected life in a Tesla battery is 300-500K miles.
Most EVs have the charger in the car - not something you add at home. At home, I had to add a plug - cost all of $100, with the LEAF we charge off of 120v outlet. Adding Solar is not a cost of an EV - EV charging rates is as low as $0/kwh in some areas.
The additional costs projected in this thread are mostly pure BS.
If I’m gonna spend “below 100k pricetag”....that electric vehicle better do everything my current car can do. And it better cost about the same. Until then I’ll keep what I got or buy a comparable ICE vehicle.
That’s why electric cars are a nonstarter for me. I don't want the cost of a charging station in my house right now, and I don’t want a car that can’t do what my current car does or cost 100,000 dollars.
There are currently 7 EVs at less than $30K new right now, another 3 less than $35. EVs are not for everyone but cost should not be that much of a driving factor.
Thank you for correcting my terminology.. I also have some questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddeemo
A Battery and a fuel tank are NOT the same - a gas tank holds potential energy (must be converted to be used) while a battery holds actual energy (already converted). An ICE vehicle needs to use an engine to convert potential to rotational energy (at about 20% efficiency) while an EV just needs to convert electrical charge to rotational energy (at about 95% efficiency).
The USITC doesn't produce batteries and those costs are out of date - but the batteries DO NOT NEED to be replaced, current projected life in a Tesla battery is 300-500K miles.
Most EVs have the charger in the car - not something you add at home. At home, I had to add a plug - cost all of $100, with the LEAF we charge off of 120v outlet. Adding Solar is not a cost of an EV - EV charging rates is as low as $0/kwh in some areas.
The additional costs projected in this thread are mostly pure BS.
Thank you for correcting my terminology . I also have some questions.
How many miles do you get per hour of charging with your (100 dollar plug install) using the (Level one charger)? Check out the link you are severely limited.
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Thanks for an objective and informative summary.
