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In terms of packaging maybe. Perhaps that’s why Model S’s started catching fire?
I guess a can of Pringle’s is much more advanced than a bag of Fritos because they figured out to get more product in less packaging.
But if that’s how you’re defining advancement, keep in mind that puts a wrinkle in your theory that density will linearly get better with time. Once the low hanging fruit is adopted into battery design, the cells themselves take up space that can’t get any smaller until you redesign the chemistry.
Energy density for commercial batteries haven't been increasing on a linear scale for several decades--it's been an exponential scale with energy density being really low and well below the threshold necessary for powering automobiles until very recently. If it ends up going on a linear improvement path from now on instead of exponential, then it's going to be fine for automotive usage--it's just going to have a hell of a time being used for flight.
The chemistry has been constantly tinkered with when it comes to commercially produced lithium-ion batteries and batteries in general. Lithium-ion batteries encompasses a large range of batteries who are tied together simply from using lithium in a compound (any compound) as an electrode to any counterpart that would have it. The performance among different lithium-ion batteries varies extremely widely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWFL_Native
The battery technology is the key for all EVs going forward... The ideal model is that everyone or that most people move to a solar platform at their home. Thus during the day they are power generators and either sell the surplus power back to the "grid" or store it for later consumption. Then when you get home in the evening you charge your vehicle and buy it back from the grid or use it from the storage.
Batteries are key for storing the energy that is produced during the day. Then once transferred to the vehicle you need the battery to consume and store power efficiently. We need batteries that a cheap, small, light weight, long lasting (in terms of years duration and storage), work in extreme temps, charge quickly, hold a charge, and can store large amount of power.
Finally to make the whole model work we need to look at the battery technology to understand how to source the materials (rare earth elements), scale battery production with demand, build out maintenance/repair processes, and the final key is the waste/disposal process. Current batteries will be extremely harmful to the environment especially if we scale up to 225 million american drivers as well as a global pool.
Well, the good thing is that stationary storage versus use for cars have pretty different needs--stationary storage doesn't have the same emphasis on gravimetric or volumetric density or high charge/discharge rates per cell that EVs have, so they could use different compounds. There does need to be some kind of reuse and recovery system for EV batteries though, because that's a decent chunk of concentrated materiel that something like the batteries of phones don't quite have to be relatively easily and profitably done.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 11-20-2019 at 03:16 PM..
Your response doesn't make sense in that you seemed to be arguing against something that no one said (i.e. battery cell improvements are what accounts for the 40% increase in range) and that even if you had said that and were pointing to a simple addition of battery cells with nothing else, it would not account for anywhere near the majority of the range increase--nor is the ability to profitably fit and manage more cells not require some technological improvement.
You clearly do. You can make a week long argument over it.
My response made total sense. Somebody is bragging that range increased 40% in 7 years. I successfully pointed out that’s because they simply offered you more batteries which they could have done the 1st day but didn’t. You’ve successfully turned it into a marathon discussion on what exactly range is.
I did point out that in the case of the P100D and 100D, two cars with the same amount of cells there was a 15% increase. If you’re going to talk range improvements let’s start with two cars with the same size gas tank before we get all excited.
Not that I mind, but how many more post do you plan on dedicating to this?
You clearly do. You can make a week long argument over it.
My response made total sense. Somebody is bragging that range increased 40% in 7 years. I successfully pointed out that’s because they simply offered you more batteries which they could have done the 1st day but didn’t. You’ve successfully turned it into a marathon discussion on what exactly range is.
I did point out that in the case of the P100D and 100D, two cars with the same amount of cells there was a 15% increase. If you’re going to talk range improvements let’s start with two cars with the same size gas tank before we get all excited.
Not that I mind, but how many more post do you plan on dedicating to this?
What you said isn’t true. Try doing the math. What is the percent cell increase between the longest range Model S 7 years ago and the longest range Model S now? That would be an upper bound on the range increase if everything else stayed the same since the additional cells are then additional weight that needs to be moved around which takes more power for every mile driven. What is the range increase between the longest range Model S in 2012 and longest range Model S now? This also ignores any improvements that would be needed to manage more cells reasonably, allow higher charge or discharge rates, and keep costs in line.
It’s a marathon because it takes a lot for basic things to sink in. I’m helping you marinate. We all want you to be tender.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 11-20-2019 at 03:21 PM..
What you said isn’t true. Try doing the math. What is the percent cell increase between the longest range Model S 7 years ago and the longest range Model S now? That would be an upper bound on the range increase if everything else stayed the same since the additional cells are then additional weight that needs to be moved around which takes more power for every mile driven. What is the range increase between the longest range Model S in 2012 and longest range Model S now? This also ignores any improvements that would be needed to manage more cells reasonably, allow higher charge or discharge rates, and keep costs in line.
It’s a marathon because it takes a lot for basic things to sink in. I’m helping you marinate. We all want you to be tender.
It’s not me that’s not understanding my statement.
This is a marathon because you make this too complicated. Take two battery packs of the same size and compare. Don’t compare a smaller pack from 2012 to a larger one in 2019 and act all condescending about it. The larger pack could have just as easily been offered in 2012.
It’s not me that’s not understanding my statement.
This is a marathon because you make this too complicated. Take two battery packs of the same size and compare. Don’t compare a smaller pack from 2012 to a larger one in 2019 and act all condescending about it. The larger pack could have just as easily been offered in 2012.
Do you know how to do the math on that? They could have been able to offer a larger 100kWh pack in 2012, but how would that have resulted in a 40% increase in range? For that matter, how would they have done that without also blowing out the price? Really, if adding more of the same battery cells is all it took, then maybe they should have made the 2019 long range Model S in 2012. That’s a brilliant idea!
Do you know how to do the math on that? They could have been able to offer a larger 100kWh pack in 2012, but how would that have resulted in a 40% increase in range? For that matter, how would they have done that without also blowing out the price? Really, if adding more of the same battery cells is all it took, then maybe they should have made the 2019 long range Model S in 2012. That’s a brilliant idea!
Are you insinuating the reason they didn’t offer a larger battery pack is because they didn’t have the technology to make a larger battery pack?
Don’t confuse a company’s marketing restraints with technology improvements. At no point was Tesla ever worried about cost for the Model S. For all you know they probably couldn’t get that many cells at the rate they needed them.
Don’t make this difficult. Just take two of the same size packs and compare the difference and there’s your actual improvement.
Are you insinuating the reason they didn’t offer a larger battery pack is because they didn’t have the technology to make a larger battery pack?
Don’t confuse a company’s marketing restraints with technology improvements. At no point was Tesla ever worried about cost for the Model S. For all you know they probably couldn’t get that many cells at the rate they needed them.
Don’t make this difficult. Just take two of the same size packs and compare the difference and there’s your actual improvement.
Now even casting that aside, which is silly because that'd be ignoring what actually happened, can you do the math for the percentage cell differences between the long range Model S in 2012 versus the long range Model S in 2019 and how that can explain a 40% increase in range?
Also, what do you think engineers actually do? You reckon there's a little dial on specs and they just turn them up once in a while without any kind of work or trade-off to do so? "Oh yea, just add more cells for capacity, bro!" Genius! "Let me turn range up 40% !" Let's go download more RAM!
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 11-20-2019 at 05:06 PM..
Now even casting that aside, which is silly because that'd be ignoring what actually happened, can you actually do the math for the percentage cell differences between the long range Model S in 2012 versus the long range Model S in 2019 and how that can explain a 40% increase in range?
Funny considering the Chevy Volt had a water cooled battery dating back to its original concept in 2007. I guess if Tesla rediscovers the wheel it’s considered a design improvement.
So again, Tesla offers a bigger gas tank that was already invented earlier and you think that counts as a 40% improvement. Ok. Good for you.
Funny considering the Chevy Volt had a water cooled battery dating back to its original concept in 2007. I guess if Tesla rediscovers the wheel it’s considered a design improvement.
So again, Tesla offers a bigger gas tank that was already invented earlier and you think that counts as a 40% improvement. Ok. Good for you.
What kind of response is that even? Are all things of the same type the same thing?
Also, Tesla didn’t invent the electric car. That’s a real zinger right there. Also didn’t discover electricity or invent the first automobile. You know, in case, you wanted to make a marathon of that.
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