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As we've gone over, my $25k Bolt is $10k less than the average price of a new car. That's cheap enough. And off lease ones are quite a bit cheaper.
Most people drive 14-15k miles a year. That's only 35 or so miles a day on average. No need to lug around heavy batteries to do 300-500 miles when you're not using most of it. You have to in a gas car because you have to GO somewhere to get gas and don't get gas every day.
And as for recharging times, since it recharges while I'm asleep, my charge times are effectively 10 seconds: 5 to plug in and walk in the house and 5 to walk out and unplug when I leave for work. I almost never have to go somewhere and charge up (and then only on the rare long road trip). How much gas would you need to carry with you if you started each day from your house with a "full tank?"
The other weekend I drove all over the Chesapeake region for 4 hours and had only used half my charge by the time I got home. It's amazing just how far 200 miles really is for most people.
There are a lot of good reasons to not get an EV right now, especially living in an apartment or a really rural area. But for most people in the US, it's not an issue. While most of the country is in the middle, and wide open, most of the people don't live in those areas.
Yeah but GM is losing their butt on that $25,000 bolt. So is the government.
Just think how cheap cars would be if they all sold for $10k less than the cost to build them plus got a $7500 check from the government! Ha. Most of Mitsubishi's lineup would be free!!
Faster charging with greater capacity is the only way an EV would even be practical for me. I don’t know how quickly batteries discharge while parked, but my commute is 104 miles, park for 4 weeks with no chargers available, then 104 miles back home. Even top-tier Teslas probably will require charging to get back home, and after a month away, I’m just not interested in dedicating extra time to do that.
If you are driving 200 miles a month and letting your car sit for a month, it would be cheaper to just rent a car one way each time you commute....
Yeah but GM is losing their butt on that $25,000 bolt. So is the government.
The Bolt doesn't have the $7500 tax credit anymore. In fact, we didn't get any tax credit on ours.
And IDGAF if GM is losing money on the Bolt at that price point, The fact is that currently that's the price point for a new Bolt LT and that's a reasonable price for a new car. Especially one as quick, agile, and well equipped as this one. If that's too much money then basically any new car is, regardless of powertrain and not because being an EV costs too much to buy.
The thing is, many of the future improvements in battery range and charging speed and weight go hand in hand.
Improved energy density will come from bettery chemistries but also improved manufacturing processes (such as the Maxwell dry electrode tech) which also end up with a more "pure" battery that has less degredation over so many charging cycles.
You can charge a battery at a high rate of charge - but it will just degrade the battery faster. Improved longetivity will also allow companies to allow higher charging rates without fear of major degradation. So they will go hand in hand.
The increase in energy density means, you can either have less weight for the same range as before, or more range at the same weight as before.
So expect them to simply offer both!
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Originally Posted by vision33r
You know what you've posted is scientifically contradictory. The bigger the battery, the longer it takes to charge.
The 2nd problem is the most problematic is the bigger the battery, the less efficient the EV becomes due to weight.
In an ICE car, weight drops as oil is spent, not in an EV the weight stays constant while charge drops.
The way to solve this is to regenerate a % of power used to push the car and recover the energy.
This is why efficiency > capacity when it is comes to maximum mileage.
No. Charging is limited at the cell level. Each cell will take up to X minutes to charge up to 80%
A bigger battery will take as long as a smaller battery to reach 80%
But the bigger battery will be able to charge more miles than a smaller battery in the same amount of time.
I think at this point that the best investment is in getting incentives to apartment owners and condo associations to put in dedicated 220v outlets that renters or condo owners can plug in their own $299 EVSE and market those apartments and condos as "EV ready." It's a minor cost to apartment owners that could be paid for by the local utility companies and could be used as an advertising point. That would go farther to getting widespread acceptance of even cheap used EVs.
Then we wouldn't need so many destination chargers, or longer range cars. And the price of the cars is coming down anyhow. My 2020 Bolt was $25k without government incentives.
Your talking allot of money to install chargers at apartments and condo complex’s and huge manufactured home communities, and what about people who have more than on EV and both people need their EV charged so they can get to work. Do you have any idea on how bei some of these communities are. I know we’re i use to live there were over 1,000 manufactured home sites with no garages. I don’t thin people want to get soaking wet plugging in their EV in the pouring rain.
The chargers are about $299 and they can be bought by the EV owner and just plug into that outlet. That way the apartment complex or condo association is only liable for the outlet, not the charger, and the outlets can be written into the rent (or even paid for by the electric company as EVSE ready). Basically this is a low to no cost option and can be easily done by ANY apartment complex, condo, or mobile home community.
Quote:
and what about people who have more than on EV and both people need their EV charged so they can get to work.
One outlet per parking space will cover that.
Quote:
Do you have any idea on how bei some of these communities are. I know we’re i use to live there were over 1,000 manufactured home sites with no garages. I don’t thin people want to get soaking wet plugging in their EV in the pouring rain.
My charger is outside and if it's raining I'm only spending 5 seconds plugging in as I walk by the front of the car. I'd get just as wet getting out of the car and going in directly. Same for unplugging it as I walk by and get in the car.
Mine is a permanently installed Level 2 charger and I charge both our EVs from it. But the ones I'm talking about are these:
they tend to be $199-299 depending on brand and cord length. Someone renting or in a condo could buy one of these when they buy their EV and plug it into an available 220v outlet. It'll charge much faster than the 110v charger that comes with the car. So the idea is to get apartments, condos and the like to install the outlets.
You know what you've posted is scientifically contradictory. The bigger the battery, the longer it takes to charge.
The 2nd problem is the most problematic is the bigger the battery, the less efficient the EV becomes due to weight.
In an ICE car, weight drops as oil is spent, not in an EV the weight stays constant while charge drops.
The way to solve this is to regenerate a % of power used to push the car and recover the energy.
This is why efficiency > capacity when it is comes to maximum mileage.
You’re right, though one crinkle is that for DC fast charging, it’s generally been that the larger capacity is able to charge at a faster rate though you get a heavier vehicle. For level 1 and 2 charging, charging rates are about the same no matter your battery capacity, so efficiency gets you more miles per time spent charging.
The thing is, many of the future improvements in battery range and charging speed and weight go hand in hand.
Improved energy density will come from bettery chemistries but also improved manufacturing processes (such as the Maxwell dry electrode tech) which also end up with a more "pure" battery that has less degredation over so many charging cycles.
You can charge a battery at a high rate of charge - but it will just degrade the battery faster. Improved longetivity will also allow companies to allow higher charging rates without fear of major degradation. So they will go hand in hand.
The increase in energy density means, you can either have less weight for the same range as before, or more range at the same weight as before.
So expect them to simply offer both!
No. Charging is limited at the cell level. Each cell will take up to X minutes to charge up to 80%
A bigger battery will take as long as a smaller battery to reach 80%
But the bigger battery will be able to charge more miles than a smaller battery in the same amount of time.
Right, the battery improvements would help both cases. What I’m wondering is if people have a preference for EVs that use those improvements towards a lighter, cheaper vehicle or the same weight vehicle but using those improvements for more range and faster max charging speeds. Those are mutually exclusive, but automakers can end up offering both or split the difference. My question is more about your personal preference between the two extremes.
Writing in early 2020, the weight-penalty of electric batteries is just devastating. Green or brown, fast or slow, convenient or inconvenient, the high weight is unacceptable to me. I'd much rather have a vehicle with only 50 mile range, that takes 12 hours to recharge, than something that's 800 pounds heavier than its ICE equivalent.
Yea, I’m on that side of preferences though maybe not to the extreme of 50 miles range. With the battery improvements in this hypothetical though, and EV with 50 mile range would be really cheap and light. Hell, an EV manufacturer making a vehicle with a 50 mile range today would be really light and cheap. I’m guessing no automaker is doing that now because they’d be afraid they won’t be able to sell enough to make a profit.
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