Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Automotive
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-31-2008, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Apple Valley Calif
7,474 posts, read 22,807,685 times
Reputation: 5682

Advertisements

Here's another good read from "Consumer Affairs" It will give you the real scoop.
You're right, JB, the film is just an ad for the company selling the product. It's a "Dog and Pony show" Research the guys promoting this stuff, they have a long list of failed business' behind them. This is the newest scam...
"Run Your Car On Water" Scheme Could Leave Consumers All Wet
I can show you many more articles from creditable sources that know this is garbage that's why no creditable auto engineer will waste their time with such nonsense...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-03-2008, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,741 posts, read 8,853,368 times
Reputation: 2022
[quote=Donn239
The point is that you cannot get more energy out of Hydrogen and Oxygen made through electrolysis than you originally put in. Therefore, trying to run your car off of Hydrogen you create using energy from the engine is the same trying to make a perpetual motion machine. Like plugging a generator into a motor, that powers the generator. Efficiencies kill you and the machine doesn't work.

Listen to the scientists, not the back yard J$ck offs....[/QUOTE]




That "conservation of energy" law is often quoted by naysayers as the "final word" on why "it can't work".

But...it doesn't apply in this case....here's why:

You are right: it DOES takes more energy to create HHO gas than what you get out of it. But that's not the end of the story...

A gasoline engine is NOT 100% efficient. Only about 25% of the energy from burning gasoline is actually turned into mechanical energy. The rest goes right out the tailpipe, in the form of heat.

Have you thought about what happens to the efficiency of a gas engine when you add HHO? What would happen if we tapped some of that 75% wasted energy? What is the by-product of burning hydrogen? That's right: WATER...

What happens to that water? That's right: it is turned into STEAM. What happens when you convert water into steam? That's right: it takes up more volume...causing pressure...that's why the old steam engines worked. What happens when you take SOME of that wasted heat energy (that would ordinarily go out the tailpipe) and convert it into mechanical energy, via the steam produced? That's right: engine efficiency goes UP.

So...you have not only the energy from the burning of hydrogen to consider, you have to also add to that the increased mechanical energy (higher efficiency) caused by water injection (steam)...

There are a tremendous number of variables to think about when evaluating these devices: amount of HHO produced per amp, amount of HHO actually introduced into the engine, the type of vehicle it is being used with, the effect of the oxygen sensor, the type of electrolyte used, etc, etc.

That's why I say one needs to test DOZENS of these devices before we can get a good idea of whether any actually work or not. Quoting a link of someone who tested one unit that said "it doesn't work" isn't going to cut it...neither does offering an armchair opinion not based on actual experience or testing.

Just my $.02 worth

P.S. I DO intend to build at least one of these...I will find out for myself...

Bud
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-03-2008, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Lettuce Land
681 posts, read 2,902,700 times
Reputation: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
I DO intend to build at least one of these...I will find out for myself...Bud
Hat's off to ya, Bud, for sticking by your guns on this. Paint me skeptical but curious. Hope you get back to us someday with your results. But be careful of the steam thing. It's easy to get burnt that way - no pun intended.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-03-2008, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Columbia, California
6,664 posts, read 30,498,023 times
Reputation: 5177
The Law of Conservation of Energy

Energy in a system may take on various forms (e.g. kinetic, potential, heat, light). The law of conservation of energy states that energy may neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore the sum of all the energies in the system is a constant.

It will take as much power to separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen as the power it will provide.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2008, 12:14 PM
 
Location: The Frenchie Farm, Where We Grow 'em Big!
2,080 posts, read 6,895,495 times
Reputation: 1084
Not to throw more gasoline into the fire.....

Why on-board hydrogen generators won't boost your mileage - AutoblogGreen
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2008, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Apple Valley Calif
7,474 posts, read 22,807,685 times
Reputation: 5682
Quote:
Originally Posted by brikag View Post
You aren't throwing more gasoline on the fire, just adding more facts, which will not be heeded. We have already concluded that we have two factions on this subject;
Those that know the Hydrogen generator can't possibly work, and those that would rather dismiss the automotive engineers, and the scientists that have actual facts to back their arguments....
The sheep would rather believe the scam artists that are stealing their money, than believe the experts in the field..
If they would simply look into the backgrounds of those promoting the scam, they would see these con men have been involved in numerous scams every year, and this is simply the latest scam, because the high gas prices make the ignorant easy prey.
At first, myself and others tried to educate the uneducated, but since they wish to continue believing in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, and absolutely refuse to accept the truth, I no longer care if they wish to throw away their money on a fairy tail. I do hate to see the scam artists get rich on the suckers, but since there is no cure for stupid, one can only sit back and let them flail away in a hopeless pursuit.
Thanks for the site, by the way, I save everything I can find on the subject, both pro and con.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-04-2008, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Lettuce Land
681 posts, read 2,902,700 times
Reputation: 255
Yeah, what Donn2390 said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2008, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,741 posts, read 8,853,368 times
Reputation: 2022
Just a question for all those who say this idea can't possibly work: please explain the answer of those who HAVE actually built this contraption, and say it worked for them. Are they all liars?

I'm not saying this idea works, but neither do I say it can't. I don't think enough valid impartial testing has been done...


Bud
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2008, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,741 posts, read 8,853,368 times
Reputation: 2022
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferretkona View Post
The Law of Conservation of Energy

Energy in a system may take on various forms (e.g. kinetic, potential, heat, light). The law of conservation of energy states that energy may neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore the sum of all the energies in the system is a constant.

It will take as much power to separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen as the power it will provide.

Very true. But....on the other hand....one form of energy can be converted into another form of energy. Like mechanical energy may be converted into heat, or light. And heat energy can be converted into mechanical energy. Some proponents of the HHO gas claim that burning hydrogen makes the engine convert more of the normally wasted heat energy into useful mechanical energy. There is no magical creation of energy from "out of nothing" as some naysayers say the "believers" are claiming. Those who think it works just claim that they are tapping more of the wasted energy that normally would go out the tailpipe.
I don't know if that is true...but what I am saying is I'm at least willing to consider that possibility...my mind is not "locked". (Like: "don't confuse me with facts...my mind is made up!")


Bud
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2008, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Apple Valley Calif
7,474 posts, read 22,807,685 times
Reputation: 5682
Liars is a strong word, but yes, many are. Most of the stories you are hearing is here say from my buddies uncle's roommate's grandfathers', etc, etc.... Basically stories repeated around the water cooler and barroom by people who have no idea what they are talking about. It's always "I knew a guy"......
As far as the very few who have constructed such junk, if they are actually seeing any difference at all, it is very minimal, which is easily done by changing their driving habits once installing the device.
If you would simply take the time to read the last several sites posted that are written by people who know what they are talking about, it explains all of your questions. Some of the test they use to prove their theory are laughable. Did you read what the auto engineer's and scientist said? Judging by your questions, I must assume you didn't.
The big three automakers just announced the worst quarter in 15 years. If there was any chance the junk science would work, the industry would install it in every vehicle, and there would be lines out the door in every new cars sales room in America. You will never see any of this stuff written up in any reputable auto magazine in circulation. Everyone knows it is urban legend that has been around for years.
As far as the companies who are selling the devices, YES, they are lying...! Some are claiming up to 180% increase. They are con men preying on the ignorant. If con men weren't good, they wouldn't be con men......
Please, go read the last few sites posted, that tell the truth. If you still think they work, then get your checkbook out and join the sheep......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Automotive
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top