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Old 01-29-2022, 09:20 PM
 
14,460 posts, read 14,860,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
I view Toyota as a conservative trend-follower. They don't succeed by aggressively pushing edgy state-of-the-art designs.
The Tesla Model S was introduced on June 22, 2012. The Model S was the top-selling plug-in electric car worldwide in 2015 and 2016.

The 2012 Model S was $57,400 (plus destination). By later in 2012, the 2013 model was bumped up to $59,900.

The Toyota Mirai has a fully developed electric powertrain, just one with a hydrogen fuel cell instead of a battery pack. Retail sales in the U.S. began in August 2015 at a price of $57,500 before any government incentives. Deliveries to retail customers began in California in October 2015 (over 3.5 years before the announcement of the Tesla Model 3).

Toyota may be a follower, but they are really not that far behind.
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Old 01-29-2022, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
8,653 posts, read 5,578,841 times
Reputation: 10706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
I don't see it that way. GM used to slow and conservative, but there has a been a change under Mary Barra's leadership. She's been able to turn the battleship around and they are headed full speed ahead on EV development. They are dropping $7B on three new battery factories and will be coming out with many new models by 2025. Ford's done the same, except their designs are better, and the F-150 Lightning is a stroke of design brilliance.

I view Toyota as a conservative trend-follower. They don't succeed by aggressively pushing edgy state-of-the-art designs. They are No. 1 because they appeal to the non-enthusiast buyer who wants sensible, well built and reliable vehicles. Your average motorist isn't ready to jump in on EV's just yet; when they are, then you'll see Toyota jump in with both feet.
GM is spending money. We will see how well they compete. I don't always agree with Sandy Munro, but the guy isn't a dummy, and he's been working as a senior-level engineer in the American auto industry for many decades now, so I also don't just dismiss what he has to say lightly. Munro has been quite critical of the Ultium battery pack design and said he expects it to be more expensive and less reliable than Tesla's 4680 battery packs.

Last edited by OutdoorLover; 01-29-2022 at 10:31 PM..
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Old 01-31-2022, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Vallejo
19,591 posts, read 21,741,888 times
Reputation: 16934
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvetters63 View Post
No. Botton line is what the ATP is going to be. MSRP is worthless. Especially when companies do things like this:





Remember, I BOUGHT a Bolt (as did 150k others). I don't just theorize crap. MSRP had zero to do with it, same for the nonexistent tax credits.
Yeah, once you start deviating from MSRP it becomes less and less relevant. The problem with the Bolt is it's a subcompact car that wasn't priced like a subcompact car. Get the price down to 22-23k though and it's a subcompact car/CUV thing that's priced like other car/CUV things. At 32,000 it's a good deal if you have to have an EV but otherwise you should just buy a gas car. At $22,000 it's just a good deal.
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Old 01-31-2022, 02:59 PM
 
Location: In the heights
35,022 posts, read 34,352,221 times
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What are the EV offerings to be available in the US from each this year? Off the top of my head

GM
- Bolt EV if and when production restarts
- Bolt EUV if and when production restarts
- Hummer EV pickup, nominally released and supposedly ramping up this year
- Cadillac Lyriq, to be released later this year

Toyota
- Toyota bZ4X, to be released later this year (maybe count its Subaru Solterra counterpart as well?)
- Lexus RZ, Lexus equivalent to the above probably being release this year

I left off BrightDrop for GM as that's not for mass market consumer use. Is there anything I'm missing for the US market this year?
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Old 01-31-2022, 03:27 PM
 
2,609 posts, read 4,649,125 times
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GM Bolt is dead.



https://autos.yahoo.com/chevy-bolt-b...183500420.html


The EVs batteries will be the equivalent to spent fuel (nuclear power) only worst by overloading an aging electrical system and polluting the planet (more than modern ICE).



Future generations will not look kind at us for embracing EVs "revolution"...
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Old 01-31-2022, 03:42 PM
 
Location: In the heights
35,022 posts, read 34,352,221 times
Reputation: 19263
Quote:
Originally Posted by 28173 View Post
GM Bolt is dead.



https://autos.yahoo.com/chevy-bolt-b...183500420.html


The EVs batteries will be the equivalent to spent fuel (nuclear power) only worst by overloading an aging electrical system and polluting the planet (more than modern ICE).



Future generations will not look kind at us for embracing EVs "revolution"...
The Bolt EV and EUV will certainly be dead at some point, but the topic asked about 2022.

In that same article posted:
Quote:
"Production of the Chevrolet Bolt EV and EUV will continue during [Lake Orion's] conversion activities to prepare the facility for production of the Silverado EV and Sierra EV pickups,"
Quote:
AN said industry intelligence firm AutoForecast Solutions believes the Bolt will die in 2023, the Bolt EUV in 2024.
So I don't think it's clear that there will not be Bolt EV or Bolt EUV production and deliveries this year, 2022, which the OP asked about.

EV batteries have a lot of residual value in multiple uses whether for repairs to other EVs (like when a vehicle is totalled, but the pack, modules in the pack, or even cells in the pack can still be good), reuse like when they have a second life reuse such as with stationary battery storage, or recycling since the valuable materials used in the battery are still there and still valuable after the battery is no longer suitable for day to day EV use. This isn't what people do with spent nuclear fuel, so I'm not sure how that analogy works for you. What kind of spent nuclear fuel were you thinking of when you wrote that?

EVs won't take over the market here until they're comparable or better in purchase price and performance across broad segments of the market. They're generally already better with performance in a lot of ways and have better operating costs. They're more spacious in terms of usable interior space compared to their external dimensions, and generally better NVH. Once that purchase price and fast charging times gets down to similar or better than their closest ICE competitors for almost all segments, you'll likely opt for one over an ICE. So you're in a good position. If EVs don't get there, you were right about your skepticism and can feel good about that. If EVs do get there, you get a better vehicle and a better deal and you can feel good about that.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-31-2022 at 03:59 PM..
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Old 02-03-2022, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Del Rio, TN
38,208 posts, read 24,071,566 times
Reputation: 24208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliott_CA View Post
I don't see it that way. GM used to slow and conservative, but there has a been a change under Mary Barra's leadership. She's been able to turn the battleship around and they are headed full speed ahead on EV development. They are dropping $7B on three new battery factories and will be coming out with many new models by 2025. Ford's done the same, except their designs are better, and the F-150 Lightning is a stroke of design brilliance.

I view Toyota as a conservative trend-follower. They don't succeed by aggressively pushing edgy state-of-the-art designs. They are No. 1 because they appeal to the non-enthusiast buyer who wants sensible, well built and reliable vehicles. Your average motorist isn't ready to jump in on EV's just yet; when they are, then you'll see Toyota jump in with both feet.
GM is doing so well under Mary's leadership that they sold an entire 26 BEVs last quarter. Ford's Lightning is a regular F-150 with a battery/electric motor conversion, not a ground up EV design. Which explains the lousy range and efficiency. And saddled with Ford's greed and desperation to sell dramatically overpriced pickups, to keep the mark alive. Now, I do think Ford's management is doing better than GM and is taking EVs far more seriously. Will be nice when they build some in the US.
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Old 02-03-2022, 11:12 AM
 
Location: In the heights
35,022 posts, read 34,352,221 times
Reputation: 19263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
GM is doing so well under Mary's leadership that they sold an entire 26 BEVs last quarter. Ford's Lightning is a regular F-150 with a battery/electric motor conversion, not a ground up EV design. Which explains the lousy range and efficiency. And saddled with Ford's greed and desperation to sell dramatically overpriced pickups, to keep the mark alive. Now, I do think Ford's management is doing better than GM and is taking EVs far more seriously. Will be nice when they build some in the US.

I don't think Mary Barra's leadership or GM should get all that much blame for the Bolt battery debacle that significantly lead to those low BEV sales last quarter. I think that can be pinned mostly on the battery maker as LG had a similar issue with Hyundai around the same time, and that culpability also shows in the large settlement LG has with GM. The Bolt, despite how unpopular its segment is in the US, sold pretty well and had good specs and the Bolt EUV was a cost-effective and smart shift towards a more popular segment. The Bolt refresh addressed the main gripes about the interior quality and the lack of back support in the seats. These were the right decisions with the information available and what programs were likely underway by the time she took the helms, and I think she also made the right decision in being what some would argue is overly cautious given the rather low odds of a bad battery with pausing Bolt production in order to prioritize new battery packs for existing Bolt owners. That's a tough call, and I think she made the right one and one that does right by the people who bought the Bolt.

The largest things I'm impressed with on the GM EV front are its extremely successful EVs done in joint ventures in China which might help with EVs here, having a good enough platform that they've gotten Honda/Acura to sign off on using it, and the aggressive and fast ramp up of BrightDrop. I think 2023 is going to be the real test for whether or not GM really does have its **** together.
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Old 02-03-2022, 12:06 PM
 
10,521 posts, read 4,579,533 times
Reputation: 14042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
GM is doing so well under Mary's leadership that they sold an entire 26 BEVs last quarter. Ford's Lightning is a regular F-150 with a battery/electric motor conversion, not a ground up EV design. Which explains the lousy range and efficiency. And saddled with Ford's greed and desperation to sell dramatically overpriced pickups, to keep the mark alive. Now, I do think Ford's management is doing better than GM and is taking EVs far more seriously. Will be nice when they build some in the US.
As OyCrumbler points out, it was LG that totally dropped the ball on battery defects. GM was the victim of poor quality control at LG. LG paid a huge settlement to GM to fix the issue.

GM is ahead of Ford in terms of investing in factories and EV capacity, but I'd say Ford is better (currently) at model design and execution, with the wildly successful and sold out F-150 and Mustang.

Going back to my point, Toyota was slow and conservative in joining the EV revolution. They are playing catch up with a new $1.3 billion battery plant in N Carolina. GM is much more aggressive, with a new EV coming out, the electric Equinox SUV that will start around $30,000, with an even cheaper small vehicle to follow.
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Old 02-03-2022, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
8,653 posts, read 5,578,841 times
Reputation: 10706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
GM is doing so well under Mary's leadership that they sold an entire 26 BEVs last quarter. Ford's Lightning is a regular F-150 with a battery/electric motor conversion, not a ground up EV design. Which explains the lousy range and efficiency. And saddled with Ford's greed and desperation to sell dramatically overpriced pickups, to keep the mark alive. Now, I do think Ford's management is doing better than GM and is taking EVs far more seriously. Will be nice when they build some in the US.
The F-150 Lightning is not built on an all-new EV platform. But it's not just a crude EV conversion as you're stating. It has a skateboard chassis with the batteries low in the frame in a plane, and one electric motor up front powering the front wheels and another in the rear driving the rear wheels, and it has an independent rear suspension. In other words, no, this is not a crude conversion of the "regular" F-150.
https://insideevs.com/news/529736/fo...lling-chassis/

Moreover, the range is rated at something like 300 miles - which is not bad at all, and, reports from the field indicate that Ford has deliberately under-reported range so as to provide this stated range when towing, and the actual F-150 range when unloaded is said to be well over 400 miles, perhaps close to 500 miles.
https://topelectricsuv.com/news/ford...ic-new-update/

And furthermore, can you name all the electric pickups that are less expensive than the Lightning, if you're saying it's dramatically overpriced?
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