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If you're talking about lithium it's one of the more abundant elements on the planet. And we are about to add 600,000 tonnes annually to the supply (basically meeting about 40% of the world's needs or 100% of the projected US needs) from the deposits in and under the Salton Sea in California, while simultaneously cleaning up the environmental disaster area.
If you're talking Cobalt, specifically Cobalt sourced from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, that's problematic, but it's getting to the point where pretty much none is going to be used in EVs, while tons of it is getting used in refining gasoline to get the sulfur out...
The few ACTUAL rare-earth metals are actually not "rare" in the sense that there's not much of them on earth. They are a specific set of metals with rare properties in the periodic table.
So what are you actually talking about?
You have summed up some of the problems very well but it gets even more complex.
As I stated when I found out about the Lithium discovery in the Salton Sea (in an early post on another thread) those figures are an estimate of the Lithium they hope to find in the future, only time will tell. The earlier video posted in the thread brings out some of the complexities in recycling lithium batteries in the future if the Salton Sea does not pan out.
Water requirements are a problematic issue with lithium mining and recycling worldwide. Having been a stationary engineer in years gone by, I can relate to the water needs issues of the processes. The video below will explain Lithium water requirements much better than I. Fresh water shortages world wide is a topic that is making the news a lot lately.
You are correct however progress is being made daily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northrick
That's not true. Right now the most economical way to produce hydrogen is from natural gas. Might as well just burn natural gas to accomplish your goal. Green hydrogen is far from inexpensive. Packaging it for vehicle use is expensive. While it is abundant, seawater is mostly hydrogen, using it for an economical energy source is a ways out, if ever.
You are correct, however progress is being made daily. The problem of producing Hydrogen from seawater is experiencing an all-out assault by research scientists all over the planet. One claim of the Seawater to hydrogen puzzle being solved exists later in the thread and it was an article I left a link to from Penn State.
Here is another company's claim stating it can be done using their process at a very low cost per Kilogram.
Also while we are on the subject of salt water a Research Vessel called The Energy Observer has been traveling around the world for the past five years powered by Hydrogen. Other green sources of power existed such as solar cells and wind generators. With the combination of these energy partners the mission of this group of scientists was to prove that long term under the worst of conditions the renewable systems would prevail.
So far the have and their mission will be completed in 2023. For the full detail on this amazing journey you can stop by and see the crews journal at the link below.
There are several extremely large green-hydrogen projects going forward around the world.
The idea is that remote areas can produce large amounts of wind or solar power but there is no extremely large electric powergrid in these areas that can use the large amount of electricity. So then the electricity can be used to make hydrogen. Also, the hydrogen can be converted to ammonia-gas for easier shipping. And finally, heavy industry, like steel production, will buy the green-hydrogen.
One company that is involved is InterContinental Energy but that company only represents a fraction of the projects that are going forward around the world.
Now permitting of these wind and solar projects is thoughtful because they use a large amount of land area.
One of the uses for green-hydrogen is to combine with carbon-dioxide captured from some industrial project so as to make green-methanol liquid fuel. However, think about it, and that green-methanol is really accounted as two uses of one carbon release. One more point, the green-methanol can be converted to a non-petroleum green-gasoline.
Well, the year 2030 to year 2035 bans on internal-combustion-engined vehicles have no regard of green liquid fuels but also don't account attributable carbon-release of battery-powered electric-vehicles.
And so vehicles with hydrogen-fuel-cells, running green-hydrogen, would be a good solution to the transportation sector
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I haven't followed this thread direct from Fantasyland since I commented on the arithmetnic earlier, but this article nicely states the case why Hydrogen will never work-- the details of thermodynamics and economics simply make it imossible, even if we want to mess wth the huge engineering tricks it would take to pull it off. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/06/...rage-conundrum
Invest in Di-Lithium-- it works so well for Spock and Kirk.
I haven't followed this thread direct from Fantasyland since I commented on the arithmetnic earlier, but this article nicely states the case why Hydrogen will never work-- the details of thermodynamics and economics simply make it imossible, even if we want to mess wth the huge engineering tricks it would take to pull it off. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/06/...rage-conundrum
Invest in Di-Lithium-- it works so well for Spock and Kirk.
The thread has addressed many issues across the energy spectrum, and has also made a case for a hybrid solutions using multi energy sources. I think that the subject of enery will always be a work in progress.
Thanks for stopping by. Good points, but even the dilithium crystals won't help when the the oil runs out. For more then 50 years I have been reading about peak oil and when ARAMCO went public a while back, things in the energy world got a lot more interesting.
However Saudi Arabia has the money and a plain for the future. (see the video on the largest most expensive project ever under taken below.
The task of having built the current our existing energy infastructure took more than 100 plus years, it wont be replaced over night no mater what combination of energy sources we use.
Eariler in the thread the video interviews about the recycling of batteries and the scale of whats comming deserve a lot more attention in my opinion.
Most of todays population are not old enough to remember why the enviorment became such a concern. In the 1970's in newspapers and news broadcasts, some of the main topics were air, industrial and landfill polution. Some of the enviormental disasters are house hold words today.
The indentification and discription of the ecological dangers that these sited posed led to new legislation and a very long term and expensive fix of these problems called (THE SUPER FUND) which has just turned 40 years old.
I feel like hydrogen's best bet will be something other than personal transportation, or even commercial transport. For those uses it just seems like too little, too late.
I'm also cynical enough to detect now the drawbacks of hydrogen production that certain people seem to be ignoring today but will focus on tomorrow.
Other articles also posted on this thread and other blogs bring out the E.U. also heavily invested a hydrogen passenger future.
The world vehicle market is very dynamic. Changes are occurring daily, below is a video demonstrating the world vehicle producers from the 1950's until 2019 and who won or lost the vehicle production race in any given year during that period.
I think hydrogen has to have the same purchase incentives as the rest of the competition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Nothing will happen.
As is, those in the real power, have their stakes in electric. They, likely, have some reasons, not spoken about, to go that way.
Until THEY decide to go hydro, nothing will happen. Just like it didn't happen to steam engines, engines running on water, vehicles with inertia energy storage etc, etc.
Until THEY make their decision, it is all waste of bandwidth.
I think hydrogen has to have the same purchase incentives as the rest of the competition.
The hydrogen world of class 8 semi's is speeding up as we speak.
It looks as if the National Renewable Energy Laboratory has just made an important break through in the technology of Class 8 semi truck hydrogen fuel tank filling in record time.
Filling of fuel tanks in class 8 semi trucks are required to occur at much higher rates than passenger motor vehicles because their tanks commonly hold a combined total 250 of gallons of diesel.
The National Renewable Energy Laboratory can now fill a hydrogen equivalent of a class 8 semi truck in under ten minutes which is equal to an amount of diesel which will propel an loaded 80,000 lb truck 1500 miles.
Part of the goal of the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in this endeavor is to establish standardization in the filler connection, hoses, breakaway safety connector, etc.
Coupling this information to the construction truck retrofit article earlier in the thread shortens the timeline between of hydrogen powered class 8 semi's being on the road considerably.
I think hydrogen has to have the same purchase incentives as the rest of the competition.
The hydrogen world of class 8 semi's is speeding up as we speak.
It looks as if the National Renewable Energy Laboratory has just made an important break through in the technology of Class 8 semi truck hydrogen fuel tank filling in record time.
Filling of fuel tanks in class 8 semi trucks are required to occur at much higher rates than passenger motor vehicles because their tanks commonly hold a combined total 250 of gallons of diesel.
The National Renewable Energy Laboratory can now fill a hydrogen equivalent of a class 8 semi truck in under ten minutes which is equal to an amount of diesel which will propel an loaded 80,000 lb truck 1500 miles.
Part of the goal of the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in this endeavor is to establish standardization in the filler connection, hoses, breakaway safety connector, etc.
Coupling this information to the construction truck retrofit article earlier in the thread shortens the timeline between of hydrogen powered class 8 semi's being on the road considerably.
Fuel cell vehicles often qualify for the same rebates and grants as battery electric vehicles, including the substantial federal tax credit. This also includes rebates or credits for commercial vehicles, so they are on a fairly equal footing in those regards. Also, a lot of the hydrogen refueling stations in California, where they're the most common by far within the US, exist largely via state backing. This is also true of the much more extensive hydrogen refueling network in Japan.
Fuel cell vehicles often qualify for the same rebates and grants as battery electric vehicles, including the substantial federal tax credit. This also includes rebates or credits for commercial vehicles, so they are on a fairly equal footing in those regards. Also, a lot of the hydrogen refueling stations in California, where they're the most common by far within the US, exist largely via state backing. This is also true of the much more extensive hydrogen refueling network in Japan.
Thank you I'm glad to find that is the case. I'm also thankful, just for moving forward with some very complex issues involving technology and transportation.
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You are correct however progress is being made daily.
