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Old 08-11-2022, 04:19 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
12,411 posts, read 9,510,794 times
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TFL Truck visits International Trucks to have a look at one of their all-new medium diesel trucks and compare it to a sister model, an all-new electric truck of similar weight rating. These have got to be some of the first electric trucks at this scale. No huge surprises here, but interesting stuff nonetheless.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW58t5nitBg
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Old 08-11-2022, 06:14 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,031,425 times
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Ev should have started with commercial applications. 24/7 users

Buses would have been an easy entry for trucks.
Australia is leaded with HHV heavy duty applications. (For about 20 yrs)
EV delivery vans premiered 10+ yrs ago
Class 8 HD had just a few early entrants due the the variety of applications.

City delivery is the intro with OTR following, probably viable with swapping battery packs. A truck designer in the late 1960s, had a quick swap power unit and drivetrain semi truck, mounted on a sub chassis you could slide under cab and 'plug and play' in under one hour.

~$50 recharge per 120 mile range = about $5 fuel
EV shines on maint expenses (temporarily)
Initial vehicle Cost ~3x

"EV price parity is possible with grants.... Plus considering the 10 yr maint savings over ICE". We'll see how the electronics / control modules hold up. . I'm sure they're very cheap and accessible. To bad EV commercial vehicles don't have the 50 yrs learnings since the Arab oil embargo.

Last edited by StealthRabbit; 08-11-2022 at 06:36 AM..
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Old 08-11-2022, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
12,411 posts, read 9,510,794 times
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Yes, some of the top line conclusions were:

- Highway range of the diesel truck is *far* better, this electric truck anyway, isn't a good fit for extended highway driving
- However, re-gen braking on the electric truck can greatly extend it's range in stop-and-go driving, which is the proposed use case for the International electric truck - mostly urban and local roads, lots of added stops for e.g. delivering appliances or what have you.
- Purchase price of the diesel truck is far lower, approaching 1/3 what International is charging for their similar electric truck
- Some government grants may be available to reduce the effective purchase price of the electric truck
- Operating cost for the electric truck is assumed to be far lower, due to cheaper fuel and lower maintenance burden

Also interesting was that the electric powertrain's response has been tuned to replicate the diesel powertrain's response - no head-snapping/load dumping acceleration here. Driving experience was nicer in the electric truck - quieter, less stress.
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Old 08-11-2022, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Newburyport, MA
12,411 posts, read 9,510,794 times
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I'll just tack this on re commercial electric trucks: Elon Musk is promising to start deliveries of the Tesla semi by the end of this year. Of course, it's already 3 years late and he's made these promises repeatedly, so we'll see if this actually happens. Musk has after all built the largest EV operation in the world and has successfully rolled out 5 EV models so far, but, obviously he's also made a lot of promises that either didn't come true or were delivered on far later than the initial hype statements promised... so while I don't disregard everything he says, I also don't take anything at face value either.

Interestingly, the price mentioned in the article, for a semi/tractor with 500 mile range, was $180,000, which, if that's accurate, would be significantly less than the cost of the International truck reviewed above, which has far less range.

See:
https://supercarblondie.com/ev/elon-...his-year-2022/
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Old 08-11-2022, 11:17 AM
 
Location: In the heights
37,135 posts, read 39,380,764 times
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EVs *have* started with commercial applications. There had been EVs in use for a long while whether BEVs like Britain's milk trucks or catenary-using applications like trains and trolleybuses. They've also been extensively used in municipal vehicle and transport applications for a while with a lot of Europe and China having moved a lot of people by now with electric buses and the US has some of those, too, and notably some electric school buses which are a pretty perfect use case application. Mail and local delivery vehicles are also a good use case that's been taken up, but USPS has been a bit weird about replacing those vehicles and somehow OshKosh won the contract for such.

For heavy duty trucks, drayage at ports and local/regional freight shipping make a lot of sense. I would think that there would have been some traction on battery swapping for some of the longer-distance or constant uptime uses, but those don't seem to have been common except for within China.

The operational savings bit makes sense especially if it's a use-case where there's an extended time (like overnight) where the vehicle isn't in use. I think one thing to note is that the EV in video is essentially a modified ICE vehicle to use as an EV and that generally doesn't take as much advantage of the kinds of things EVs allow as well. It has a 210 kWh battery pack and yet its max DC charging rate is 125 kW which is pretty curiously low. I also think it's interesting that they purposefully gimp the EV motors which makes sense if you're cruising on empty, but I wonder if they at least give the option or have an automatic adjustment to allow for more power available at times when you've got a heavy payload or a steep incline.

I wonder how these would compared with EVs built on dedicated EV platform like something based on the Brightdrop or Rivian van platforms. For reference, there is a 212.7 kWh battery vehicle built on an EV platform for sale already in (semi) mass production and that's the Hummer EV. That goes for ~$110K base price with a lot of bells and whistles both in the interior and as part of the powertrain including having three motors with two in the rear and one in the front for a massive combined 1,100 hp and 11,000 lb-ft of torque (not a typo) which is well over what the tested vehicles have or need. Range comparisons would be difficult since it's very different use cases, but charging rates would translate directly and the Hummer EV charges at a far higher peak rate for DC fast charging (verified 256 kW reached, but possibly higher). It makes me wonder if something like the Hummer EV but stripped down of the niceties and then beefed up for heavy duty use and with the tri-motor configuration into a two-motor rear and front configuration wouldn't end up having far better specs and pricing than what's in the video.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 08-11-2022 at 12:07 PM..
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
20,292 posts, read 37,174,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover View Post
Yes, some of the top line conclusions were:

- Highway range of the diesel truck is *far* better, this electric truck anyway, isn't a good fit for extended highway driving
- However, re-gen braking on the electric truck can greatly extend it's range in stop-and-go driving, which is the proposed use case for the International electric truck - mostly urban and local roads, lots of added stops for e.g. delivering appliances or what have you.
- Purchase price of the diesel truck is far lower, approaching 1/3 what International is charging for their similar electric truck
- Some government grants may be available to reduce the effective purchase price of the electric truck
- Operating cost for the electric truck is assumed to be far lower, due to cheaper fuel and lower maintenance burden

Also interesting was that the electric powertrain's response has been tuned to replicate the diesel powertrain's response - no head-snapping/load dumping acceleration here. Driving experience was nicer in the electric truck - quieter, less stress.
The reason why you don't want too much torque to be applied to the wheel for faster acceleration is because it will discharge the batteries at a great rate of speed. You can see this happening in FE racing (Formula Electric) where maximum torque to the wheels is almost constant, which in turn decreases the number of laps the car can be driven. You can see the same if you load a Rivian with a heavy travel trailer, versus a regular pickup truck. Such an electric truck looks good, but if you load it to capacity and drive on hilly terrain, it won't go very far. Another problem I noticed is the battery temperature management system is located precisely at the place most commonly hit head-on by cross traffic.
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:47 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,135 posts, read 39,380,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
The reason why you don't want too much torque to be applied to the wheel for faster acceleration is because it will discharge the batteries at a great rate of speed. You can see this happening in FE racing (Formula Electric) where maximum torque to the wheels is almost constant, which in turn decreases the number of laps the car can be driven. You can see the same if you load a Rivian with a heavy travel trailer, versus a regular pickup truck. Such an electric truck looks good, but if you load it to capacity and drive on hilly terrain, it won't go very far. Another problem I noticed is the battery temperature management system is located precisely at the place most commonly hit head-on by cross traffic.
That's pretty minimal in a work truck setting. It's fine to discharge the batteries at a greater rate for a bit as you're not going to try to keep going after a certain speed--that should have pretty minimal effect on pretty much anything whether its durability or energy efficiency. Remember, the range for which an electric motor is most efficient is quite wide. FE is a scenario where they might actually hit the upper limits in some settings, but this isn't that setting. In the video, they very clearly said that they artificially limited it for two reasons. One is familiarity for truck drivers who are used to ICE vehicles. The other is that they're afraid if allowing too much acceleration that goods in the back would be pushed back to heavily against the rear. There's likely a huge amount of leeway between what they artificially set its acceleration curve at and where the motor is actually less efficient. You equating more torque with loading a Rivian with a heavy trailer is kind of silly. I'm not sure what you're trying to do there as these don't closely intersect.

Hilly terrain is probably great for these trucks provided that at some point the trucks also go down. Regenerative braking is nice like that. Where it's clearly not good is for long highway speed trips whether hilly or flat.
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Old 08-11-2022, 04:30 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,031,425 times
Reputation: 46172
As a 50+yr CDL driver (3m+ miles commercial only + personal miles)
and an employer of drivers...
I would not want or need my EV truck to accelerate (deliver power) differently than an ICE. (Driver train stress, I'm also a ME...) and no need for greater acceleration performance of a heavy vehicle which will eventually need to STOP. !

EV is likely very good for employees, especially if they are getting paid by the hour, and have a power level meter, so they can run out of juice in a very inconvenient location, far from the terminal.

But most certainly EV would solve a lot of fleet abuse and maint issues.

It is pretty common in delivery trucks / step vans (bread trucks) already.

I was not keen on the accelerator automatic deceleration regen, but noticed it is 'switchable'. (I don't want deceleration when I intend to coast, and am really not keen on being rear-ended by inattentive drivers of heavy trucks behind me. (Think congested terminal / commercial / freeway areas). There is a lot to keep a Commercial driver 'occupied' in heavy traffic (Mirrors / proximity radar warnings / EMS vehicles / goof-ball 4 wheel drivers getting into your off-track, finding addresses, overhead clearances, RR crossings...). I hope the EV comes with a wind-up power booster cord for those times you get hung up on RR crossings. (Usually due to other drivers who are not aware of your clearance and traction needs.)
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Old 08-11-2022, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
20,292 posts, read 37,174,791 times
Reputation: 16397
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
That's pretty minimal in a work truck setting. It's fine to discharge the batteries at a greater rate for a bit as you're not going to try to keep going after a certain speed--that should have pretty minimal effect on pretty much anything whether its durability or energy efficiency. Remember, the range for which an electric motor is most efficient is quite wide. FE is a scenario where they might actually hit the upper limits in some settings, but this isn't that setting. In the video, they very clearly said that they artificially limited it for two reasons. One is familiarity for truck drivers who are used to ICE vehicles. The other is that they're afraid if allowing too much acceleration that goods in the back would be pushed back to heavily against the rear. There's likely a huge amount of leeway between what they artificially set its acceleration curve at and where the motor is actually less efficient. You equating more torque with loading a Rivian with a heavy trailer is kind of silly. I'm not sure what you're trying to do there as these don't closely intersect.

Hilly terrain is probably great for these trucks provided that at some point the trucks also go down. Regenerative braking is nice like that. Where it's clearly not good is for long highway speed trips whether hilly or flat.
The diesel truck above can be leaded to maximum and driven at high speed, and still go a long way compared to the EV burning a maximum of 6-7 MPG. If you take it easy with the foot pedal, it would burn around 6 MPG.

There are some videos about the Rivian versus another truck, each towing a 6,000-pound trailer. The drivers were not racing or applying excessive torque to the wheels, just driving from the charging and gas stations (slowly), and then at highway speeds. Both trucks where near each other, so about the same speed. I am not being silly, for the more torque to the wheels the more fuel is burned, and the more the battery is discharged in comparison. Diesel trucks for long distance and heavy towing are designed so fuel consumption is kept to a possible minimum, and the extra torque is needed up hills aided by the turbo. The motor is going to burn fuel within a predesigned amount. It is the same for the F1 6-cylinder motor, except that in this case it will be high-speed driving most of the time, and the motor is going to burn around 6 MPG.

Last edited by RayinAK; 08-11-2022 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 08-11-2022, 06:07 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,135 posts, read 39,380,764 times
Reputation: 21217
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
The diesel truck above can be leaded to maximum and driven at high speed, and still go a long way compared to the EV, burning a maximum of 6-7 MPG. If you take it easy with the foot pedal, it would burn around 6 MPG.
Did you not understand what I wrote? Your response has almost no relationship to what you're quoting. Are you okay?
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