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Early cars did not have batteries, as their electrical systems were limited. A bell was used instead of an electric horn, headlights were gas-powered, and the engine was started with a crank. Car batteries became widely used as cars became equipped with electric starter motors.
In a sense internal combustin engines did not become usable to the elderly or women until this critical component was electrified. As you pointed out quite a few men ended up with smashed noses or broken wrists.
In August 1888 Bertha Benz drove from Mannheim to Pforzheim in the first intercity trip by automobile. She took along her two sons in the Patent Motor Car built by her husband Carl Benz. The boys would have been necessary for the muscle to start the car and push it out of any ruts it got stuck in along the way.
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With the hostility to technology that some forum members have, I am surprised that they don't rail against electric start too! Certainly it's not necessary, it adds cost, and it's something else to go wrong. You'll never need to replace a starter motor or be left stranded with a dead battery if you have good old crank start.
M. Stanley Whittingham discovered the concept of intercalation electrodes in the 1970s and created the first rechargeable lithium-ion battery, which was based on a titanium disulfide cathode and a lithium-aluminum anode, although it suffered from safety issues and was never commercialized.The first prototype of the modern Li-ion battery, which uses a carbonaceous anode rather than lithium metal, was developed by Akira Yoshino in 1985,
General Motors EV-1 in production from 1996–1999 initially used 16.5–18.7 kWh lead–acid, later versions and converted to 26.4 kWh nickel–metal hydride (NiMH). The initial version of the LEAF sold as model year 2011 used a 24 kWh lithium-ion battery.
I think most engineers believe it would have been possible to create a LEAF type EV a decade earlier using nickel–metal hydride (NiMH) batteries.
I think most engineers believe it would have been possible to create a LEAF type EV a decade earlier using nickel–metal hydride (NiMH) batteries.
As an urban runabout, certainly - even with lead acid batteries. Such a vehicle, if sufficiently compact (carrying only 1-2 occupants) would have done much to relieve both urban congestion and pollution, say right around the time of the formation of the EPA and the nastiest proliferation of smog (1970 or so).
Electric-assisted bicycles are popular today. The first examples came out in the 1970s, but for some reason remained a niche item. Battery technology improved, but perhaps the biggest change was cultural acceptance.
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Originally Posted by Malloric
Even with modern Li-Ion batteries EVs are mostly running around with the equivalent of 2-3 gallon gas tanks. Batteries suck at energy storage. The basic jerry can for $50 or whatever stores a lot more energy than a state of the art 1,000 pound battery that costs $10,000. That's how much batteries suck at storing energy.
The difference is quite astonishing, even with the latest batteries. Imagine a Tesla with 1500 lb of batteries converted to run on gasoline, with a gas tank large enough for 1500 lb of fuel! It would have a range from Los Angeles to NYC, without refueling.
Indeed, the numbers today are something like this: gasoline has around 30X the energy density of the best batteries. But a good electric motor has 3X the efficiency of a gasoline engine. So, the net ratio is 10X. That is, for every 10 pounds of battery weight, the equivalent ICE car would only need 1 lb of gasoline.
With a 17.4 kWh battery you can charge overnight with a standard 15A outlet, which may be the most important thing for many people!
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Originally Posted by ohio_peasant
Battery technology improved, but perhaps the biggest change was cultural acceptance.
Cultural acceptance can make huge differences. An e-bike is usually restricted to 28 mph in most states. A step up would be these three wheel enclosed Solos that are sold in Canada that can reach 80 mph so in a pinch you can go for one or two exits on a limited access highway (and shake in fear when an 80,000 lb truck passes you). But mostly they are city vehicles.
But even the California CARB culture is not accepting of these vehicles. In order to qualify as a Zero Emission Vehicle under latest CARB rule, a BEV must travel a minimum of 150 miles, or 50 miles if it is a PHEV.
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The culture has pretty much rejected the 1.6 liter gasoline non hybrid naturally aspirated engine in an vehicle. There are only a few left. on the market.
121 hp Venue ------------- Hyundai
120 hp Rio ------------- Kia
122 hp Kicks ------------- Nissan
122 hp Versa ------------- Nissan
These represent the cheapest, fuel economical way to drive up to 2 adults and 2 children around a metro area.
The 2.0 liter gasoline non hybrid naturally aspirated engine in a vehicle seems alive and healthy with only Mazda dropping this size engine for 2.5 liter start point.
166 hp Ecosport ------------- Ford
169 hp Corolla ------------- Toyota
169 hp Corolla Cross ------------- Toyota
169 hp Corolla Hatchback ------------- Toyota
158 hp Civic ------------- Honda
158 hp HR-V ------------- Honda
149 hp Sentra ------------- Nissan
141 hp Rogue Sport ------------- Nissan
148 hp Outlander Sport ------------- Mitsubishi
152 hp Crosstrek ------------- Subaru
152 hp Impreza ------------- Subaru
147 hp Elantra ------------- Hyundai
147 hp Kona ------------- Hyundai
147 hp Forte ------------- Kia
146 hp Seltos ------------- Kia
147 hp Soul ------------- Kia
Last edited by PacoMartin; 02-04-2023 at 03:36 PM..
Almost everything you said there is wrong. Most modern EVs can go 250 to 300 miles on a charge which is equal to 10 or 12 gallons of gas.
It's correct. Go ahead and use the Google. 33 kwh is about what a gallon of gas has for energy and EVs are mostly in the 60-100 kwh range, 2-3 gallons.
EVs have other advantages. Efficiency is a big one. While the best ICE engines under ideal conditions are about 40% efficient in real word usage it's more like 20%. EVs are more around 80-85% efficiency. As far as a DD they're also very pleasant to operate. Manufactures spend big moneys on isolating cars from the mechanical experience of an ICE to minimize NVH. EV does that in spades. The on tap torque is very nice. Since you'll mostly charge at home the fuel costs are much less.
EV downsides are that batteries still are pretty much totally awful at storing energy versus gas making the vehicles relatively more expensive and notably heavier. E.g., the F-150 Lightning is about 1,500 pounds heavier with the extended range battery than the V6 hybrid one. Battery weighs a lot. The range is decent unless you need to tow. When towing the efficiency angle doesn't work out so well. Towing is energy intensive and that it's running around with equivalent of a 4 gallon gas tank really hurts when towing versus just driving around without a boat anchor hanging off the back. I've still got my F-150 Lightning reservation but there's some real downsides to it. When my order came up the first time it was 75k+ minimum. It hasn't come up again which is kind of to me interesting to begin with. After price hike it would be 84k which I'm very not interesting in paying that amount of money for an all hat light duty pickup that really can't tow. Even for my all hat type of needs which would only involve towing to maybe half a dozen track days a year it just isn't an ideal tow pig. Just the nature of EVs until there's another breakthrough in battery tech.
It's correct. Go ahead and use the Google. 33 kwh is about what a gallon of gas has for energy and EVs are mostly in the 60-100 kwh range, 2-3 gallons.
EVs have other advantages. Efficiency is a big one. While the best ICE engines under ideal conditions are about 40% efficient in real word usage it's more like 20%. EVs are more around 80-85% efficiency. As far as a DD they're also very pleasant to operate. Manufactures spend big moneys on isolating cars from the mechanical experience of an ICE to minimize NVH. EV does that in spades. The on tap torque is very nice. Since you'll mostly charge at home the fuel costs are much less.
EV downsides are that batteries still are pretty much totally awful at storing energy versus gas making the vehicles relatively more expensive and notably heavier. E.g., the F-150 Lightning is about 1,500 pounds heavier with the extended range battery than the V6 hybrid one. Battery weighs a lot. The range is decent unless you need to tow. When towing the efficiency angle doesn't work out so well. Towing is energy intensive and that it's running around with equivalent of a 4 gallon gas tank really hurts when towing versus just driving around without a boat anchor hanging off the back. I've still got my F-150 Lightning reservation but there's some real downsides to it. When my order came up the first time it was 75k+ minimum. It hasn't come up again which is kind of to me interesting to begin with. After price hike it would be 84k which I'm very not interesting in paying that amount of money for an all hat light duty pickup that really can't tow. Even for my all hat type of needs which would only involve towing to maybe half a dozen track days a year it just isn't an ideal tow pig. Just the nature of EVs until there's another breakthrough in battery tech.
Very informative post, as usual.
I will add the following: the greatest problem with storing electricity in a battery is not necessarily the battery itself, but it's weight. The more energy packed into a battery, the heavier it gets because more cells or battery modules have to be added. Also, the more energy stored in a battery, the more dangerous it becomes, and for that reason the battery must have stronger cooling systems, and more case reinforcement, all with add weight. The case is made stronger for safety reasons, such as for protecting ruptures during a crash, and things like that.
The battery of the most powerful Hummer weights over 3,000 pounds. This vehicle weighs around 9,400 pounds, while your F-150 Lightning is much lighter, but if towing two identical but very heavy trailers with both vehicles, the drive range of your F-150 is not too far under the driving range of the Hummer because the latter has to carry more weight up and down hill. Something else, is that the Hummer does not have a good size bed. It's more of a battery that has a passenger cabin rolling on wheels. The lighting has a lot more room all around.
Almost everything you said there is wrong. Most modern EVs can go 250 to 300 miles on a charge which is equal to 10 or 12 gallons of gas.
Everything he said was correct.
Fueleconomy.gov Top Ten
All-Electric vehicle (EV) fuel economy is given in Miles Per Gallon equivalent (MPGe), where 33.7 kWh = 1 gallon of gasoline.
So a Tesla Model 3 RWD or Tesla Model Y has a 57.5 kWh battery which is the energy equivalent of 1.71 gallons of gasoline.
AFAIK, the biggest battery in a production vehicle is the electric Hummer. (212.7 = 6.31 gallon equivalent)
The 2010 Hummer had an EPA range of 432 miles and a Tank Size of 27.0 gallons and so 432/27 = 16.0 MPG
The 2023 Hummer had an EPA range of 329 miles and a Battery Size of 212.7 kWh and so 329/6.31 = 52.1 MPGe
You are not using the correct method of calculation.
Your argument would be 329/432 =76.16% so 76.16% * 27 gallons = 20.56 gallons. So you think the 3000 lbs battery in an electric Hummer carries the energy equivalent of 20.56 gallons of gasoline.
But you are forgetting electricity has already been converted from primary source (natural gas, petroleum, coal, hydro power, nuclear) back at the plant. So the energy has already taken large losses already . Electric power generation in the US for 2021 developed usable energy at a rate of 35.8% with the rest being rejected energy (reference Lawrence Livermore). Keep in mind that most modern plants do much better than the average. There are some very old plants in operation.
An internal combustion engine is starting with a primary source and trying to develop useful energy in a relatively small piece of equipment compared to the size of an electric generator. So just like a power plant most of the energy is rejected, but it is lost in the form of heat and greenhouse gases.
In 2014 Toyota developed a new gasoline engine which it claims has a maximum thermal efficiency of 38%--greater than any other mass-produced combustion engine. It is even better than an average power plant.
Last edited by PacoMartin; 02-04-2023 at 08:19 PM..
Leave it to government to conveniently ignore the most efficient form of land transport - railroading.
Of course, they colluded with the competition to destroy rail transportation.
If all government meddling was eliminated (taxes and subsidies), rail would become dominant in a New York Minute.
Simple - it's 20 times more efficient than pneumatic tire on pavement.
Fueleconomy.gov Top Ten
All-Electric vehicle (EV) fuel economy is given in Miles Per Gallon equivalent (MPGe), where 33.7 kWh = 1 gallon of gasoline.
So a Tesla Model 3 RWD or Tesla Model Y has a 57.5 kWh battery which is the energy equivalent of 1.71 gallons of gasoline.
If a Tesla can go 250 to 300 miles on a charge, then put a 1.71 gallon gas tank in a ICE vehicle and see how far it will go?
I think you are forgetting about the efficiencies of an electric motor, and the inefficiencies of a gasoline engine.
If a Tesla can go 250 to 300 miles on a charge, then put a 1.71 gallon gas tank in a ICE vehicle and see how far it will go?
I think you are forgetting about the efficiencies of an electric motor, and the inefficiencies of a gasoline engine.
Watch this video with an open mind, since the host is not anti-EV nor ICE technology. As you watch the video you may be able to understand what a couple of posters have been trying to tell you. This video relates to fuel and electrical energy densities:
EV's efficiency is quite greater than an IC engine efficiency. Everyone in this forum already knows that. But despite of all that efficiency, a comparable ICE automobile drive range exceeds by at least 2x the drive range of the EV. This is one of the reasons why jet fuel is used in aircraft (batteries are too heavy and bulky). Fuel is lightweight and does not take a lot of room in the fuselage. Another point is that while an engine burns fuel (car, aircraft), every gallon burned amounts to the vehicle becoming lighter by 6 pounds. But batteries do not become lighter when the destination point is reached. The formula of power to weight ratio in vehicle construction is one of the factors affecting vehicle drive range.
Last edited by RayinAK; 02-05-2023 at 03:47 PM..
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