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Old 06-04-2008, 08:14 PM
 
Location: America
6,994 posts, read 16,377,459 times
Reputation: 2083

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I am reading about the new diesel engines and it seems this could be the next natural progression from petrol based engines. Wanted to know if any of you guys have experience with these cars. Supposedly they get 30 to 40 mpg in city. Can't beat that.

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Old 06-04-2008, 09:18 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
28,929 posts, read 48,225,970 times
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sure, been doing the diesel car thing since 1976, these are nice, but I doubt the US will ever embrace diesel cars enough to make them popular. They also are burdened with lots of expensive emission stuff. Use Bio-D in the current versions for reduced emissions.
It's also too bad that the USA gets stuck with the low mileage of the auto tranny, while Europe still gets manual tranny diesels.

I'm not waiting for this ""VW has shown a 69 m.p.g. diesel-hybrid Golf, though Mr. Keyes said the technology was years away from production.""

I think I can get there sooner. EV Pusher Trailer

I would look for the US to go toward CNG instead of diesel.

jb
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:48 PM
 
3,460 posts, read 5,341,885 times
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This just rubs me the wrong way....

We can't have diesel cars that could double our mileage because they spew emissions, and when we do get them they'll be horribly expensive and complicated because of all the emissions **** the government mandates. .

But we can take diesel fuel (its the same as fuel oil, but with added road taxes) and burn it without pollution controls to heat our houses....its terrible if you use it to get to work, but fine and dandy if you use it to keep the pool warm.

grrrrrrr.......
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:51 PM
 
Location: WA
5,566 posts, read 23,248,046 times
Reputation: 6370
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlinggirl View Post
This just rubs me the wrong way....

We can't have diesel cars that could double our mileage because they spew emissions, and when we do get them they'll be horribly expensive and complicated because of all the emissions **** the government mandates. .

But we can take diesel fuel (its the same as fuel oil, but with added road taxes) and burn it without pollution controls to heat our houses....its terrible if you use it to get to work, but fine and dandy if you use it to keep the pool warm.

grrrrrrr.......
Although emission control adds to the cost but even without that diesel engines cost more than gasoline engines. The high compression aspect of diesels requires stronger components and the fuel timing must be more precise.
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Denver
3,246 posts, read 8,188,134 times
Reputation: 3188
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlinggirl View Post
This just rubs me the wrong way....

We can't have diesel cars that could double our mileage because they spew emissions, and when we do get them they'll be horribly expensive and complicated because of all the emissions **** the government mandates. .

But we can take diesel fuel (its the same as fuel oil, but with added road taxes) and burn it without pollution controls to heat our houses....its terrible if you use it to get to work, but fine and dandy if you use it to keep the pool warm.

grrrrrrr.......
Don't forget its ok for that loaf of bread to be delivered via a semi truck that has no emissions controls on it too....
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Old 06-05-2008, 04:44 AM
 
11,456 posts, read 48,907,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wankel7 View Post
Don't forget its ok for that loaf of bread to be delivered via a semi truck that has no emissions controls on it too....
Apparently, you haven't been around diesel engines in semi's for many years.

The latest several generations of diesel engines from Cat, Cummins, Detroit, which are the predominant over the road powerplants, are all using the latest electronic/computer controlled fuel injection systems. These powerplants are used throughout the diesel powered range of vehicles, which include semi's, school buses, public transportation system buses, delivery vehicles, etc.. Most all are turbocharged/intercooled, which greatly helps with volumetric efficiency and cleaner running.

This industry result has been for the same reasons that everyone else in the transportation industry/business has "cleaned up" their act: vastly improved fuel efficiency with cleaner exhaust emmissions.

The fact is that on ULSD, mandated by the EPA for all over the road diesel use, these motors burn cleaner with fewer emissions than the current generation clean gasoline motors. Fewer NOX, less CO, and without all the particulates from the older mechanical diesel fuel injection systems that could not be as closely regulated per injection stroke and were frequently "over fueled" in an attempt (generally successfully) to get the maximum horsepower out of a diesel motor.

You simply don't see trucks spewing black smoke out the stacks anymore, because the operators now get optimal fuel injection delivery ratios and the maximum power out of their motors without having to resort to overfueling. That black exhaust represents a lot of money going up in smoke with $4.00/gal diesel fuel, which few can justify from an economic standpoint, let alone from a pollution standpoint.

Similarly, the mid-range diesel motors in city delivery service have been "cleaned up". Again, economic factors as well as federal pollution standards have been at work to extract maximum fuel efficiency and economy of operation. The federal pollution standards are more stringent here than on gasoline motors, too.

When you see a modern diesel vehicle with visible exhaust smoke, it's way out of tune or has been tampered with ("performance chip" or "overfueled") to defeat the pollution controls designed into it. There's simply no benefit to the operator to have excess fuel burning in the exhaust gas stream instead of burning it in the combustion chamber where it can generate horsepower.

There's also "particulate traps" in the exhaust system, which are the diesel equivalent to "catalytic converters" in gasoline powered vehicles. And there's crankcase ventilation controls, exhaust gas recirculation controls for idling, etc., on the diesel motors. If you don't know your electronics for diagnostics, you can't work on the modern diesel motors any more than you can work on a gasoline powered car today ... they both require computerized diagnostic test equipment.

At the rate most commercial vehicles put on miles and are retired today, there's very few of the older type diesel motors on the road anymore in fleet service. They're simply too low in HP and efficiency to be economically viable, where the old "standard" was around 250 to 325 HP and 12-16 speed transmissions, now most trucks have 400-600HP and fewer number of gears, delivering fuel economy similar to the older units. That "extra" horsepower and less shifting means a trucker can keep up his roadspeed a lot better, which means better labor efficiency ... it's all about making and keeping money.

Serious diesel exhaust emission technology hit the streets in the USA starting about 1982. By then, all the major manufacturers had introduced better fuel injection/injectors, better combustion chamber designs, better cam timing, better induction/exhaust systems, and so forth ... in an effort to get more HP per cu inch and better fuel efficiency along with cleaner running. Turbocharging had just about become "standard" in the diesel industry by 1985, and mechanical fuel injection systems were well on their way out by the mid 1990's.

It's truly unfortunate that the myths and misperceptions about diesel technology persist in the USA marketplace ... although a number of car and truck manufacturers helped create this problem with some very poorly designed vehicles a few years ago. The European marketplace, especially, has been using highly fuel efficient commercial diesel motors for many years, and they've been well accepted. Had they been brought over to the USA, we'd have been able to be much more fuel efficient, too. And not all the cars are "pokey and smokey" ... even Alfa Romeo has a diesel powered sports car that is quicker and faster than their gasoline powered stablemate. We've rented diesel Peugeot's and they're pretty nice drivers, and got close to 40 mpg in highway driving with a fully loaded down car. Here at home, our family has been driving diesel MB's since 1968, and my current 1982 300Dturbo sedan still delivers 28 mpg around town, my 1971 220D (now repowered with a 2.4 motor) gets 32-34 mpg on the highway, down a mile or so per gallon from the 2.2 motor (but worth it with the extra midrange torque to maintain roadspeed in the mountains). All of our family's diesel Audi's, Peugeot's, VW's, and Volvo's had fuel economy ranging from a low of 34 mpg to a high of 50 mpg in various road conditions, although all of those cars were not as durable as the MB's, so those were all retired with low six figures on the odometer.

Last edited by sunsprit; 06-05-2008 at 04:59 AM..
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Old 06-05-2008, 01:00 PM
 
Location: The Frenchie Farm, Where We Grow 'em Big!
2,079 posts, read 6,248,016 times
Reputation: 1084
I agree with sunsprit. Diesel in the US has drastically improved. During the late '90's, they placed mandates for the oil co. to make cleaner diesel fuel for the US market to match the EU and Japanese markets. Unfortunately, the cost has trickled down to the consumer. When I drove an '81 VW pickup in the late 80's, I paid .70 a gallon. Today, I saw the price of diesel... $5.39! WOW.

Now, Honda and VW are bringing their diesel engines to the US. And with the stringent 5 state emmissions, they will be 50 state legal b/c of a certain "urea" filter that cuts down the noxious fumes and particles that once plagued the image of diesel. The two companies claim their emmissions are much cleaner than some of their models in their product line that run on reg. unleaded.

But here in Socal, the price of diesel is too outrageous for me to switch.
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Old 06-05-2008, 01:19 PM
 
Location: WA
5,566 posts, read 23,248,046 times
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The refineries in this country were constructed to favor gasoline production rather than diesel and any change over which is very expensive will only be done in response to market demand so diesel supplies stay pretty tight.

Making matters much worse in the last year is the high exports of diesel prompted by overseas demand and the low dollar. This demand will eventually be reduced after the Olympics when China ends its temporary clamp on pollution which has shutdown many coal fired plants in favor of diesel.
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Old 06-05-2008, 02:24 PM
 
48,507 posts, read 90,975,176 times
Reputation: 18204
There is a dealer nearby who is not taking any diesel trucks as trades now at all. I have a freind and he said they just have too many how with dropping sales. It will take smaller diesels that meet emissions requirements.But he sold his cheaper to a individal that need to tow havey loads for his jobs and bought a new gas truck which he needs for hauling capcity i his work for like 8100 cash back that made up for it and more.Seems many tht need a truck are making very sweet deals.While those that are repalcing economy cars are not getting very good deals.
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 55,777,219 times
Reputation: 24780
Diesel oil appears to be priced in proportion to the energy value of the fuel.
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