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Old 07-02-2008, 09:20 AM
 
77,697 posts, read 59,834,099 times
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Well, my neighboring state of Missouri and the populist rag the KC Star have taken up the battlecry of "hot fuel" gouging the consumers.

The calculate the consumer "savings" of hot fuel monitors and how they are helping the little guy but seem to have missed any potential offset.

Basically, the corporation is just going to adjust its prices to return to the previous level of profitability AND pass along the cost of the hot fuel monitors to the public.

Anyone see this from a different viewpoint? What about just putting a 5 cent a gallon additional tax on gas to cover hot fuel....what would happen to the pump prices then?
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Apple Valley Calif
7,474 posts, read 22,809,587 times
Reputation: 5682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Well, my neighboring state of Missouri and the populist rag the KC Star have taken up the battlecry of "hot fuel" gouging the consumers.

The calculate the consumer "savings" of hot fuel monitors and how they are helping the little guy but seem to have missed any potential offset.

Basically, the corporation is just going to adjust its prices to return to the previous level of profitability AND pass along the cost of the hot fuel monitors to the public.

Anyone see this from a different viewpoint? What about just putting a 5 cent a gallon additional tax on gas to cover hot fuel....what would happen to the pump prices then?
Why don't you post a link so someone knows what you're talking about....? Your post may make sense if one lived in your area, but the rest of us have no clue what you're talking about.....
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:38 AM
 
77,697 posts, read 59,834,099 times
Reputation: 49088
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Originally Posted by Donn2390 View Post
Why don't you post a link so someone knows what you're talking about....? Your post may make sense if one lived in your area, but the rest of us have no clue what you're talking about.....
Sorry. (this has been mentioned nationally...my bad though)

Basically, a gallon of gas varies with temperature as the volume increases or decreases. A gallon of gas is defined at a set temperature of 63degrees.

As an example, say gas is sold on average at 64 degrees then the consumer is getting "less gas". Politicians are talking about requiring monitors on every pump to adjust gas based upon the temperature and that it costs consumers billions every year.

My opinion is that it makes sense to do this on paper but that implementing this would be costly (passed along to the consumer) and that there would not even be a real savings as whatever the impact is will also be passed along to the consumer.

I view it as political pandering that your elected official is "doing something" about higher gas prices but it's really ultimately pointless.
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:46 AM
f_m
 
2,289 posts, read 8,343,662 times
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You can always fill up your car when it's cool outside. That should take care of most of the issue.
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Apple Valley Calif
7,474 posts, read 22,809,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Sorry. (this has been mentioned nationally...my bad though)

Basically, a gallon of gas varies with temperature as the volume increases or decreases. A gallon of gas is defined at a set temperature of 63degrees.

As an example, say gas is sold on average at 64 degrees then the consumer is getting "less gas". Politicians are talking about requiring monitors on every pump to adjust gas based upon the temperature and that it costs consumers billions every year.

My opinion is that it makes sense to do this on paper but that implementing this would be costly (passed along to the consumer) and that there would not even be a real savings as whatever the impact is will also be passed along to the consumer.

I view it as political pandering that your elected official is "doing something" about higher gas prices but it's really ultimately pointless.
OK, now I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm familiar with the subject, just not the term..!
I was a fleet manager before retirement, and had to deal with underground fuel tanks for many years. It's always been my contention that, because the fuel is stored underground, you will find only a very minimal variance in fuel temperature between the hottest summer days, to the coldest winter nights. The fuel in the line leading from the tank to the pump might change a little, but the fuel underground won't make a noticeable change in temp.
Go into a cave sometime, after you get down a few feet, the temp stays the same year round. Earth is such an excellent insulator, you won't get much change. I would bet the fuel in the tank is much less than 63 degrees. Next time you fill up, hold on to the metal part of the nozzle. It's Cold no matter what the ambient air temperature is...!
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:57 AM
 
77,697 posts, read 59,834,099 times
Reputation: 49088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn2390 View Post
OK, now I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm familiar with the subject, just not the term..!
I was a fleet manager before retirement, and had to deal with underground fuel tanks for many years. It's always been my contention that, because the fuel is stored underground, you will find only a very minimal variance in fuel temperature between the hottest summer days, to the coldest winter nights. The fuel in the line leading from the tank to the pump might change a little, but the fuel underground won't make a noticeable change in temp.
Go into a cave sometime, after you get down a few feet, the temp stays the same year round. Earth is such an excellent insulator, you won't get much change. I would bet the fuel in the tank is much less than 63 degrees. Next time you fill up, hold on to the metal part of the nozzle. It's Cold no matter what the ambient air temperature is...!
I agree with you. However, they do readings etc. and I guess in Missouri the ground temperature is on average a little above the magic number on average. The standard was probably set to a certain temp and countrywide the ground temp might vary a few degrees from the norm.

The local newspaper is garbage...they just talk to consumer advocate types...not local economists etc. It would be nice if they explained the various issues but it would probably go right over most of the readers heads anyway.
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:13 PM
 
Location: The Frenchie Farm, Where We Grow 'em Big!
2,080 posts, read 6,896,241 times
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Mathguy, sorry, I didn't hear about this on this side of the junk yard (Socal) but thanks for telling us! I hope the people get a wind of this and say something! Thanks!
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:50 PM
 
77,697 posts, read 59,834,099 times
Reputation: 49088
Quote:
Originally Posted by brikag View Post
Mathguy, sorry, I didn't hear about this on this side of the junk yard (Socal) but thanks for telling us! I hope the people get a wind of this and say something! Thanks!
Thanks, I think there are enough real issues out there and this one is a political red herring.

Basically, they would add yet another cost to my gallon of gas and their poor analysis of "savings" would never actually materialize. The local paper that champions this is basically anti-business and as i mentioned is an utter populist rag so they keep pushing this like they are for the little guy.

Frankly, they are taking our money to make themselves look better.
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
17,106 posts, read 56,720,019 times
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If the pols want to do something, the first things they could do would be to get rid of EPA's "botique" gas requirements and have one standard requirement for unleaded gas nationwide, followed by getting rid of the ethanol requirement. A "modern" car with a functioning EFI system and catalyst (for example my 87 Camry) puts out next to nothing for emissions once it's warmed up. This same class of car will get 10% less MPG from 10% ethanol fuel - so the ethanol would only make sense if you got it for free, and if it did something useful - it's not free, costs more than gasoline, and while it's an octane booster it tends to attract water and thus corrode fuel system components - hardly useful charachteristics...

IMHO Mathguy is right, this is a red herring issue, if your gas is delivered at 64 or 65 degrees the decreased density is very small, not enough to worry about.
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Old 07-04-2008, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Denver
3,373 posts, read 9,151,958 times
Reputation: 3427
Honestly, check the pressure in your tires once in a while and don't drop the hammer every time you see a green light.

You will save enough gas so you don't have to worry about asinine stuff like this.
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