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Many FWD cars dust the Cooper S, even with the Works kit. Seriously, there are far better track cars out there (FWD)! I invite you to look up the Integra Type-R. Not only is it quicker around a track, but looks better, has better ergonomics, and doesnt bend you over and rape you with a diamond-studded baseball bat (price wise) like the Cooper S does. Screw Mini.
Those tests that are being alluded to are either bogus or a invalid way to measure handling. I have dusted German sports sedans such as the BMW 328 in the Saturn Astra, my strategy is stalk the pace(not much power) and to look for a really tight turn and then put distance on the out-handled competition, nothing can stay with the Astra in the turn. The Astra is a German sports car in a hatch body.
Then I hate to say that the people youre racing dont really know what theyre doing. A good driver in a RWD, better balanced, 3 series not only has more power, but better handling as well. They should have no problem leaving you behind, especially on the straights.
The problem with the Astra is that its too underpowered. Heck, I think my SVT Focus is down on power, but its still many ponies up on the Astra, despite being many years older and can STILL outhandle any Astra, even with the upgraded suspension. My point? Even though the Astra might feel like it handles better than its direct competition, there are still many FWD cars out there, some many years older, that would drag an Astra on a leash all around the track.
Whats funny is that the Astra only eeked out .1 lateral g's over the Suzuki. But on the emergency lane change test, the Suzuki dusted the Astra. Ouch.
The Suzuki also had way better tires (high-performance all-seasons versus touring all-seasons). Swap the tires on those cars and the Astra would eat the SX4 for lunch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o
Many FWD cars dust the Cooper S, even with the Works kit. Seriously, there are far better track cars out there (FWD)! I invite you to look up the Integra Type-R. Not only is it quicker around a track, but looks better, has better ergonomics, and doesnt bend you over and rape you with a diamond-studded baseball bat (price wise) like the Cooper S does. Screw Mini.
I'd take a Mini Cooper JCW over a Type R without a moment's pause. There's a reason why the JCW is in Solo II B-stock while the Type R is down in D-stock.
The Suzuki also had way better tires (high-performance all-seasons versus touring all-seasons). Swap the tires on those cars and the Astra would eat the SX4 for lunch.
Well, just goes to show where the manufacturers were heading. The Astra isnt sporty, nor is it an amazing handler (like some claim). Its an econo-hatch with a wheezy engine and decent steering feel. Not remotely close to being one of the best handling FWD cars, which is what this thread is about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover
I'd take a Mini Cooper JCW over a Type R without a moment's pause. There's a reason why the JCW is in Solo II B-stock while the Type R is down in D-stock.
Autocross? Cmon. Driving rather slowly around cones through imperfect parking lots is one thing... whipping around Ebisu, Buttonwillow, etc, is another. Im confident the K20 Type-R can hang with the JCW kit in the corners, not the straights though. If the R can hang with 350Zs, blow past Miatas and RX-8s, the JCW should be right in that ballpark. It would be interesting to see them compete head-to-head.
Well, just goes to show where the manufacturers were heading. The Astra isnt sporty, nor is it an amazing handler (like some claim). Its an econo-hatch with a wheezy engine and decent steering feel. Not remotely close to being one of the best handling FWD cars, which is what this thread is about.
No, it goes to show where a mid-level Astra is heading. Perhaps you could tell me where the manufacturers were heading with the optional the 18" wheel/tire package with Perelli high-performance summer tires that bumps lateral g rating up to .88g?
And once again, the guy didn't ask for FWD cars with just the highest lateral gs. He asked for a car with a good balance of handling and ride compliance. The Astra is a fine car for his criteria. And it's a lot sportier than you suspect, at least where handling is concerned. Seems pretty obvious to me you've never driven one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o
Autocross? Cmon. Driving rather slowly around cones through imperfect parking lots is one thing... whipping around Ebisu, Buttonwillow, etc, is another. Im confident the K20 Type-R can hang with the JCW kit in the corners, not the straights though. If the R can hang with 350Zs, blow past Miatas and RX-8s, the JCW should be right in that ballpark. It would be interesting to see them compete head-to-head.
Right, and just how often do you get to whip your car around Ebisu, Buttonwillow, etc.? The major point of autocross is to put cars up against each other in conditions more similar to everyday driving conditions. If anything imperfect surfaces do a better job of revealing the big picture of a car's handling ability. If you were driving a Type R and you met a JCW on the street, it would hand you your own ass. Same would probably happen at Buttonwillow.
No, it goes to show where a mid-level Astra is heading. Perhaps you could tell me where the manufacturers were heading with the optional the 18" wheel/tire package with Perelli high-performance summer tires that bumps lateral g rating up to .88g?
And once again, the guy didn't ask for FWD cars with just the highest lateral gs. He asked for a car with a good balance of handling and ride compliance. The Astra is a fine car for his criteria. And it's a lot sportier than you suspect, at least where handling is concerned. Seems pretty obvious to me you've never driven one.
Youre right, Ive never driven one, I made that clear with one of my posts above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover
Right, and just how often do you get to whip your car around Ebisu, Buttonwillow, etc.? The major point of autocross is to put cars up against each other in conditions more similar to everyday driving conditions. If anything imperfect surfaces do a better job of revealing the big picture of a car's handling ability. If you were driving a Type R and you met a JCW on the street, it would hand you your own ass. Same would probably happen at Buttonwillow.
I disagree. A racetrack, free of debris, potholes, dipping, imperfect pavement, etc, is where a car's true potential is brought out. A Neon is pretty good in autocross, where low-geared, slow corners are common, but put it out at Gingerman and its back of the pack. Any person can drive any car through an autocross course and claim how great their car is, but its a different story when youre at redline in 4th gear with the tires on teh edge of adhesion on a real racetrack. THOSE are the limits where most cars lose it, and the real track performers shine. Cars like the Type-R and Mustang Cobra R are perfect examples. Sure you can drive em on the street. Sure you can autocross em. But theyre not in their element. Their element is on the racetrack, not a pitted airport parking lot with little cute orange cones all over the place. And for the record I never said the JCW Mini isnt a stout performer, but I think the Type-R is all around a more precisely-honed FWD car than the Mini.
The old Mazdaspeed Protege was pretty good. So was the MP3. The last Prelude SH was good. The Type-R was good too.
I think the Mini S JCW and the 260 HP Cobalt are probably both near the top of the list for recent production cars available in the US, as mentioned several times in this thread.
My car is a 2007 Si Coupe. It's lowered a bit and has HFP suspension upgrades, Axis Widetrack wheels that increase the track about an inch front and rear, and 235/40-18s that are very sticky (the make and model of the tires escapes me at the moment). It resists understeer and body roll tenaciously and nicely involves the rear of the car.
Even so I'm in the market to trade it for a low mile S2000...
The Mugen Civic would be a strong contender for best handler, but it's not available in the US.
I have resisted the temptation to post on this thread since its inception, but have finally broke down. Since the poster did not specify, I know of no better car in the snow on the highway than a front wheel drive cadillac--V8, lots of weight over the front tires--I have passed many cars in the ditch (although I did that too with my 74 LTD-- you just go faster in a caddy).
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