GM 350 or Ford 351: Which was the better engine? (gasket, seats, towing)

[12GO]

the best between a 350 sbc or a 351 sbf ? The 351 Ford. If it wasn't, the new ls engines from gm wouldn't have copied it's design layout.

[ranger17]

we know those who grew up on Chevy tend to prefer them, same for Ford owners and their preferences. Heck i had countless cars (some nice, some beaters) in the 70's-80's with SBC's that for me were dang easy to work on.

But for what it's worth, nowadays when i walk a classic car show, every now and then i'll see an old Ford rod, running a built SBC. But i dont recall ever seeing an old Chevy running a SBF.

[Matrix666]

Let's see here.. if you take a Hemi or Cleveland, as it came from Henry, or the Dodge Bros.. bolt in a mains girdle, fill the block, add a serious camshaft with some limited amount of forged parts and spin it to serious rpm's...

guess what happens??? anyone???

Answer: who will be buying up all those millions of 350 SBC "magazine" parts for sale

CHA CHING... it's all about the benjamins

Aftermarket PARTS... The 350 SBC, and BBC, are the most common, because they were "pushed" to be the most common... as they are the most inferior STANDARD production engines of the "BIG THREE".. of whom you will find were all good buddies when they began back in the early 1900's selling you automobiles.. to sell their petrochemicals.

GET IT YET? ...... 350 CHEV + BAN THE "BETTER" ENGINES FROM RACING = MORE AFTERMARKET PARTS SOLD

And let's not get into low octane fuels of the so called 'technology era'. A factory high compression V8 from the 1960's made as much or more torque than any LSX/OHC Mustang/Hemi of today.

LSX? Yeah they make some cool numbers versus an 1980's 350 Chev. But if I give you a Delorean with a flux capacitor.. punch in early 70's.. and go back to witness Street Hemi's running 9's with not much more than a "decent" cam and ported stock heads and long tubes.. you might realize all those aftermarket parts you are buying for your LSX.. and before that.. 350 Chev.. are making some big players very rich.

OK cool, so a factory LS1 with some CNC heads and decent cam turns 520hp on pump gas with eaze. Doesn't live long. Want more get the aftermarket parts book out.

351 Windsor.... CNC heads... all the good bits... same power any LSX or 350 can make.. in more of it's standard form.

Personally I agree with the boat guy, 20 pages ago, on the Chryslers. What many think as the boat anchor.. will be the one towing your broken 350 Chev. Chrysler - Better rod ratios, shaft rockers, ports that make more torque for the same HP, better oiling, no distributor gears.

If you want a cheap build for some cheap power... throw your 350 Chev in the bin.. then throw a 509' lift hydraulic purple cam in a junkyard 440 mopar with some home ported junk cast 452 heads that come factory with hardened seats etc, big long tubes, and go run 10's. Don't throw away your stock electronic distributor. And who needs an MSD? There's a 'gold box'. No need to buy up all those "magazine parts".. or spin it to rpm's that will require 1 aftermarket forged internal. We're talking CAST stock junk. Pistons, crank, rods, rockers, balancer, the lot = high-mid 10 second 1/4's.

Then there's the 500ci Cadillac motors. You don't hear anything about those in the mainstream.. because if you did.. you wouldn't be needing to buy up all those "magazine" parts the magazines tell you about, you know like stroker cranks, custom pistons.. etc. The Cadillac will also melt your tires through 3 gears with a 500' lift camshaft and some long tubes and leave any 350 or 454 chevy "short rodded, cam slapping, throw away most of the engine on purpose, because the corporations need ya'll to buy up trillions worth of parts".. for dead.

Am I brand biased? Hell no! They were all the same group of people back in the early 1900's.. all buddies.

But.. a Chevrolet V8, until the LS series, was, and is, the most INFERIOR V8 of the so called 'big 3'. And hence why it has been pushed and sold to become the most popular.. to sell more parts.

If you're selling to a market of 300 million people, today, you don't want to tell them they can run 10 second 1/4's with a factory 1960's-early 70's Hemi or Chrysler big block, or Cleveland, add a die grinder, camshaft and headers.

They NEED roller rockers, cam buttons, stud girdles, aluminum heads, forged pistons, rods, etc. etc. They NEED all that to go 10's in a SBC or SBF. And if you're selling parts, you need to know how to sell it to em, so they don't fish a Pontiac or Chrysler or Cadillac big block out from the junkyard and make 550hp / 500 ft/lbs on factory junk.

350 Chev is the last engine I prefer. I've had em all. Chryslers and Fords both small and big blocks are superior in factory form, in many ways. With the favorite being Chrysler only by a margin because of better standard ports (more torque) and shaft rockers. Been many a 340 or 440 leave most Chev's behind on half the aftermarket parts.

If your pockets have no ending, they're all the same. If that's the case, then just buy a Bugatti Veyron, 1200hp standard. Complies with emissions too, cause the fed's dyno happens to not be 4WD. Funny that, Joe down the road has a 4WD dyno, but the US emissions dept can only afford a 2WD dyno, so a Bugatti Veyron passes emissions because it can't be tested. Gotta keep the multi millionaires spending their dollars also

Now i won't get into diesel fuels, and agricultural machinery / trucks. That one will scare the children for life. Let's leave this one just at aftermarket performance parts for the petrochemical industry. Because if we delve any further, we can go back to the 1700's, and beyond.. and realize you're told only what "THEY" want to tell you.

Who's "THEY"....... "THEM".

[GregW]

I have owned a stock 5.0L Ford V-8 and a couple of stock GM 350's. One a GM and one a Olds. The Olds was swapped into a diesel pickup for obvious reasons and AFAK still running. The GM went to the boneyard along with the car.

Based on my limited experience I prefer the CM LS1 V-8 engine in the Buick Wagon.

Just for grins I would like to build up a Factory Five 33 coup with a Caddy 500 V-8 and an auto tranny.

[Matrix666]

And just to elaborate a little further.. "THEY" have been funding the 'big 3' for decades.. making them compete with each other on the inside.. to create competition between "THEIR" own corporations.. pushing technology to it's limits and creating an illusion of 'difference' between them all.. on us.. the masses.

While we all argue on if a Chev, Ford, Mopar is better.. "THEY", the same 'elite' families.. own them all and reap all the profits.

[Matrix666]

Originally Posted by Felix C

What occurred with the LS engines to instill the opinion they are overrated? Where they 346cid or stroked? What heads, intake and camshaft?

Local fellow did a detailed writeup reaching 500rwhp or about 590 flywheel horsepower with the stock bottom end other than rod bolts using then new AFR 205s, Fast 102 and a 240duration(at .050") camshaft or so and matching upgraded topend valvetrain components. Peak about 6500rpm. Turn to 7000rpm.

A number of fellow LS1 owners regularly achieve 430rwhp or 500 flywheel using ported GM heads, same intake and a less intense 224degree(.050" again) camshaft. 6200rpm peak. Turn to 6500rpm.

Peak torque at 4800rpm for both. Do not recall the torque at this instance but about 440 ft-lbs for the former and 410ft-lbs for the latter. Compression 11.5:1 and 11.0:1.

Both are EFI.

I could post the link for the 500rwhp build if you want to read it.

Agreed on the LS engines. But, i'll make 600hp from a 440 Chrysler with 100 ft/lbs more torque than any LS engine, with ported stock heads and a mild solid camshaft.. at 6000 rpm.. and it will still be turning tires.. when the LS is turning bearings or breaking piston rings.

My stock bottom end 530hp LS1 lived for 70,000 street miles. Occasional track. Not bad, better than many others I know of, but still nothing great either. They're like a fun throw away engine in standard form.. abuse it while it lasts.. which won't be for long.. hit or miss.

I've seen several Ford Clevelands still running.. never rebuilt from the factory.. valve guides so worn that they will drain the oil pan after one drive.. but still running! Pulled one apart and the rod bearings still had good tension, engine had barely any oil pressure remaining.. but still wouldn't throw a rod or turn a bearing.

Try that in an LS engine.

And you know that the plastic intake on the LS makes up for much of that HP over the old engines. The heat soak on aluminum intake gives up 20hp alone once it's hot.

There's old W2 headed 340ci Chryslers on todays pump gas making 565hp flywheel. Technology??? W2's were like from the 1980's.. and they still hold up against any LS cylinder head in HP and torque for the same cubic inch engine.

LS is overrated..... lots of new school magazine parts to sell for an engine that will say goodbye soon.. then you throw it in a bin and buy all new forged stuff over again.

The dude back in 1971 with the high 9 sec street 426ci Hemi Cuda would go forward in time and look at your LS engines like "meh".. what's this plastic aluminum junk good for exactly? ... yep.. good for selling plastic and aluminum parts and materials. thanks ALCOA for all that aluminum

[Matrix666]

If GM convinces y'all today an LS is so great, they sell new vehicles, and aftermarket parts. Double hit on your pockets.

In 1960, a 383ci Dodge "truck" engine, with factory dual 4bbl cross-ram, made well over 300bhp, and get this.. 460ft/lbs torque at 2400 rpm! On 10:1 CR! FROM THE FACTORY.. in a truck.. to haul hay and stuff.

413ci cross-ram Dodge? 490 ft/lbs stock standard. And the ignitions barely sparked.. compared to a multi-spark of today.

LS is great? We're in 2013. We're talking 1960. Six ZERO. Electronic nothing.

Technology is about the corporations wanting our dollars.. and convincing us to part with our dollars. Because afterall..... you don't have to have an LS. You fell for the hype that it was better than what they built in 1960.. cause they're still hungry

And don't think your new Mustang or Camaro handles so great either. There's an A-body Mopar called the "green brick" that would embarrass you in that department also. Leaf springs on the rear that were from horse and cart days.. can still corner at insane speeds today with a proper double wishbone front suspension geometry and torsion bars.

This thread was about 350 Chev vs Ford 351. Ford 351, both Windsor, and Cleveland, in standard form, make a 350 Chev look like it was built in the 1800's. Chrysler embarrasses em both.. because they just happened to have the best engineers at the time.. and were "allowed" to play "let's see who can trump who" by their same masters who OWN all of them.

The "dodge brothers" and henry ford were good friends back in the days when John D Rockefeller convinced them all to help sell his crude oil.

The "BIG 3" are infact.. "THE BIG ONE". Pick one and go with it.... it's all fairly much the same with the WIN going to the Dodge Brothers.. just if you want your rocker arms rocking nice and straight and some better velocity ports and oiling, and longer rods which mean better piston dwell (creating more effective CR) and less cylinder bore wear. All of which you can buy aftermarket for your Ford or Chevy.. all the cool stuff in the magazine build-ups.

Don't tell em to do a build up on a 440ci Chrysler from a junkyard with a cam the size they're shoving in an LS engine, and some B1 cylinder heads thrown on top..... or pull a Cadillac 500ci from a junkyard and get it breathing, either. The little LS will feel all hurt.... rather it's masters pockets and their aftermarket parts buddies will be all hurt

[Felix C]

Well there is the whole gross vs net vs varying standards over the decades used for both. Then there is the cubic inch disparity. Then emissions and noise output. Then fuel type used and quantities consumed.

Memory can be faulty. Here is a good example. Have plenty of others in case you scoff.

http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...t/viewall.html

[Matrix666]

Originally Posted by Felix C

Well there is the whole gross vs net vs varying standards over the decades used for both. Then there is the cubic inch disparity. Then emissions and noise output. Then fuel type used and quantities consumed.

[SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Pontiac GTO Dyno Testing - Shootout - High Performance Pontiac Magazine[/SIZE][/SIZE]

Emissions? ha! Why doesn't that 1200hp Bugatti Veyron comply to emissions again? Oh yep, the US emissions dept can't afford to bolt in a 4wd dyno

But hey, if you actually believe that your LS is better for the "environment" than a 1960 dodge truck, good for you.. infact good for "THEM". Because soon, we will all be pushed back to peasantville to fund their "environmentalism".

Yes that's right, the bankers and oil barons have turned environMENTAL. That's well off topic now.

Where were we again? Yeah, all that aluminum production is GREEN for earth. If you throw a set of rings and bearings and rebuild a dodge engine from 1960, nobody gets to profit from all those millions of tonnes of new aluminum blocks and cylinder heads. And all that energy and materials going into producing all these "emissions friendly" new school cylinder blocks and cars and stuff.... yeah.... ummm

.....cool story bro. keep it coming.. you might keep some of your readers programmed into buying a brand new Camaro yet

[Felix C]

There was much more mentioned in thread #228 than emissions.