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Old 11-10-2009, 10:26 PM
 
9,846 posts, read 22,575,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post

Again, interesting. but the idea that snow tires provide the same or better grip on ice than studs is still laughable.
Well I've stood there with the engineers from certain tire companies doing back to back real world testing and almost all parameters, studs compared to the new technology, doesn't have much of an edge anymore.

Where studs come in handy is in your ice racing where you are asking for a lot of hard acceleration.

However for real world drivers they are not looking for 100% on throttle driving around town in a snowstorm.

Stud performance under braking and steering is not as good in real world conditions.

I know you are convinced but I have been a party to the tire testing with various tire companies and I'm just telling you what I have seen.

Winter tire technology has made huge strides just in the last five years.

Also it's a mute point as more and more countries and states ban them anyways.
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Planet Eaarth
8,954 posts, read 20,598,488 times
Reputation: 7193
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomorrow View Post
Thanks much for your suggestions! I will probably use Michelin winter tires, which are rated as the top one in CR, instead of studded tires (I guess those tires wont work well since I drive a long distance on highway to office.)

The remaining question for me is shall I buy new steel rims or just get them from salvage yard? Will those from the salvage yard have lesser quality and therefore reduce the safety? Or in general there is very few problems (other than the looks) with old rims since they tend to be very sturdy? At the same time, it seems the new rims from tirerack.com are much more expensive, at least, $110 for one alloy rim (no steel rims avaiable for my car)...

Or I just have someone install the winter tires on my current rims and switch the tires twice a year. Since I plan to sell this car after another four years, I am not sure if the new rims deserves the investment.. Any thought?

Thanks again!
One point that you haven't considered is that radial tire take a directional set. How are you going to be sure that each tire gets back on the same place on your car each time you swap them?

As to rims..... Well, new rims will shock you for price! All you need do is find a good auto recycler and ask them for take off rims from the same make, year and model car that you have.

So what if you only plan to keep the car 4 more years? Isn't your piece of mind and safety worth the effort? Who knows, you might like this set up so well you'll keep the car longer.

Here's some more info to help you decide what's best for you & your's........

Winter Tire Ratings – What you need to know « Winter Tire Ratings

My $400 Tire Story | The Secret Mechanic

Consumer Survey Results By Category
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 102,687,747 times
Reputation: 29966
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
Well I've stood there with the engineers from certain tire companies doing back to back real world testing and almost all parameters, studs compared to the new technology, doesn't have much of an edge anymore.

Where studs come in handy is in your ice racing where you are asking for a lot of hard acceleration.

However for real world drivers they are not looking for 100% on throttle driving around town in a snowstorm.

Stud performance under braking and steering is not as good in real world conditions.

I know you are convinced but I have been a party to the tire testing with various tire companies and I'm just telling you what I have seen.

Winter tire technology has made huge strides just in the last five years.

Also it's a mute point as more and more countries and states ban them anyways.
Unless tire technology has substantially changed in the last year, I still find it hard to believe that winter tires provide equivalent grip on ice versus studs. Having driven them both, the studs worked not just better in hard acceleration, but in cornering and braking, and they just provided better response to normal inputs.

But once again, I agree that studs are not very useful for everyday winter driving where ice is rarely a significant issue, but rather snow or just plain wet roads is almost always the issue. There I will agree that studs offer close to zero benefit versus good winter tires on snow (whether fresh or hardpack) and almost certainly a net detriment on clear roads.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:38 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,082 posts, read 38,699,467 times
Reputation: 17006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tightwad View Post
A good and true comparison for normal street driving.





Why don't you two guys stay in context here and not compare street driving to ice racing.
I've never ice raced a single day in my life. I WAS in context and comparing both types in everyday street driving. Winter 07/08 with brand new studded winterforce in Maine and winter 08/09 with the blizzaks in Michigan.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:59 AM
 
9,846 posts, read 22,575,838 times
Reputation: 7737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Unless tire technology has substantially changed in the last year, I still find it hard to believe that winter tires provide equivalent grip on ice versus studs. Having driven them both, the studs worked not just better in hard acceleration, but in cornering and braking, and they just provided better response to normal inputs.

But once again, I agree that studs are not very useful for everyday winter driving where ice is rarely a significant issue, but rather snow or just plain wet roads is almost always the issue. There I will agree that studs offer close to zero benefit versus good winter tires on snow (whether fresh or hardpack) and almost certainly a net detriment on clear roads.
Even if so, it's a mute point as more and more governments ban studded tires and tire companies turn away from producing studded tires.
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Planet Eaarth
8,954 posts, read 20,598,488 times
Reputation: 7193
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
Even if so, it's a mute point as more and more governments ban studded tires and tire companies turn away from producing studded tires.
One point not mentioned is that if it's bad enough weather to need studs then a better option is chains everytime.
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:45 PM
 
14 posts, read 42,923 times
Reputation: 10
I'll throw in my dime here too, most things already been said, but i'd like to atleast repeat some good words.
First: AWD does not take away the need for winter tires, i would say rather opposite!!
One of the worst things i know is the phrase - i don't need winter tires, ihave AWD.

You don't need the winter tires to accelerate, you need them to stay on the road/get a shorter braking distance. A 4wd and a 2wd still brakes with 4 wheels.
-You'll get a sooner warning with a 2wd that it is slippery.

Regarding studs/friction tires: Studless tires can actually be better than studded tires when it comes to grip on snow/Somewhat packed snow. Compare the handling between for example some later generations Nokian Hakkapellita vs Michelin X-Ice. Both excellent tires. I have used only friction tires the last years, same brand on both cars. One reason for getting the same brand was to get the same handling on both cars, not the absolutely best on ice. A 3 hour with studded tires is a lot noisier than with studless tires.

Regarding those all year around tires, i do not want to be too general, my summer tires were actually approved for all year around use in Nort america(Nokian). They were quite ok as long as it was not too cold (-5 degC) with not completely worthless snow capabilities.
On my other car, summer tires - all year around north america, though completely worthless below +5degC (forgot the brandname though). The one time i encountered an early snow in october: Had to go down a long steep hill with 4 locked wheels(non ABS)when i was too close to the ditch, release and straighten it up, and lock up again. Down at the bottom of the hill I could not go anywhere, I had to park my car and go with a friend that had his friction tires already on.

Just try to think through how you drive, and what temperature it is. A friction tire for winter use is very soft in its structure, running a such at higher temperatures will wear them out very quickly. Not only that - the handling gets really bad when it´s warm outside.

When it comes to racing vs normal street driving: You can learn a lot from racing and how your car reacts, if you get an opportunity go on a skidtraining course or similar - go for it. I think it is well worth the time and efforts.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:51 AM
 
3,633 posts, read 6,136,290 times
Reputation: 11375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
On a side note, don't let AWD give you a false sense of security. It's great for extra grip to get going, but it provides no better grip for slowing down. While we don't all have all-wheel drive, we do all have all-wheel braking.
Excellent point. I was just researching this issue as I'm moving next summer to a place that gets a little snow, from one that gets none at all. The thing that surprised me most when I was researching the issue was just how much longer it takes to stop a car in snow with all season tires vs. snow tires - about 42% more stopping distance, on average. That alone is enough reason to equip your car with them if you drive in much snow, regardless of whether you have AWD or not, I would think! (In my case, I concluded my new location doesn't get enough snow to warrant them, and since I'll be telecommuting, I can avoid driving during the few snowfalls there - which melt off quickly, anyway.)
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:10 AM
 
24,334 posts, read 22,881,617 times
Reputation: 14912
I've got m/s tires which I take mean mud/snow tires. That means all season tires, right? I specifically asked for tires with better handling in wet conditions. I drive carefully in snow and don't worry much. If there's snow you slow down. But wet roads in rain can be alot more dangerous, IMO.
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