Is Baltimore an Northeastern city? (Hampton, Midland: stats, wealthy, map)

[Infinite_heights77]

If I like in a megalopolis like New York City, I'd have a similar perspective and disposition as well.

Originally Posted by DCK29

New Yorkers think everyone is country outside of their city. That's why us Washingtonians careless about New Yorkers what they think about our region we do us. DC never followed New Yorkers!

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by Ball freak

I never said or a least meant to say all blacks sound the same but to say all blacks outside of the South don't speak African American vernacular is very inaccurate.

AAVE is simply the grammatical rule that governs the arrangement of words. It has nothing to do with an accent. We know little about regional variation in African American accents because, as Labov even admitted, it has never been a focus of serious research by linguists.

That said, there are certainly features of Black speech in the DC area that are heavily southern-influenced (I would say southern-sounding). These features highly correlate with educational attainment and correlate somewhat with age. If you talk to a 57-year old Black woman from Upper Northwest DC who went to "the M Street School" and then later to Howard, she'll likely have a completely neutral accent. On the other hand, if you talk to a 47-year old woman who grew up in Sursum Corda or Simple City, she'll likely have something that's pretty close to a full blown southern accent. Regional accents will always be most detectable in the poorest, lower-working class areas of a region.

So, in my experience, the DC accent ranges from standard neutral English in most middle class to upper middle class Black households to southern in the poorest areas of the city where educational attainment is at its lowest. But that's not always a given: you may meet someone who grew up in a nice suburban cul-de-sac in Bowie or Upper Marlboro who still pronounces the name "Sharon" as "Shern." I guess it depends on how DC they want to be.

[Infinite_heights77]

*Excellent points BajanYankee!

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

AAVE is simply the grammatical rule that governs the arrangement of words. It has nothing to do with an accent. We know little about regional variation in African American accents because, as Labov even admitted, it has never been a focus of serious research by linguists.

That said, there are certainly features of Black speech in the DC area that are heavily southern-influenced (I would say southern-sounding). These features highly correlate with educational attainment and correlate somewhat with age. If you talk to a 57-year old Black woman from Upper Northwest DC who went to "the M Street School" and then later to Howard, she'll likely have a completely neutral accent. On the other hand, if you talk to a 47-year old woman who grew up in Sursum Corda or Simple City, she'll likely have something that's pretty close to a full blown southern accent. Regional accents will always be most detectable in the poorest, lower-working class areas of a region.

So, in my experience, the DC accent ranges from standard neutral English in most middle class to upper middle class Black households to southern in the poorest areas of the city where educational attainment is at its lowest. But that's not always a given: you may meet someone who grew up in a nice suburban cul-de-sac in Bowie or Upper Marlboro who still pronounces the name "Sharon" as "Shern." I guess it depends on how DC they want to be.

[BajanYankee]

Black Philadelphia English is not particularly distinctive. It shares similarities with NYC and Boston insofar as lacking an obvious and recognizable southern influence, but that's about it. The "accent" ranges from sort of standard from folks who grew up in some of the city's toughest projects--Tasker, Richard Allen, Raymond Rosen, etc--to standard, neutral in more working middle class enclaves. The one notable exception, imo, is South Philadelphia where it seems a very heavy Italian influence is at play. There you will find Black people, especially Blacks in their 50s and beyond, who share all of the linguistic features of the Italians in South Philly. This is more true of Black women than men, in my experience. I know some older Black women from West Philly who also share some of the features.

You don't hear much of a southern accent in older Black Philadelphians. Patti Labelle probably has the most obvious southern influence, which is not very southern imo. This is a woman in her 80s--not college educated--who grew up in North Philadelphia.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT9yll8OFq8

Here's a documentary featuring residents of the Richard Allen Homes. The way the narrator says "hay-ousing" at the 3:11 mark is interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al7aFVr93ek

Regular women on the street.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDzNlhBW7L4

[BajanYankee]

These guys do sound a bit southern. This video was made in North Philadelphia back in the 1960s. These kids are most certainly the children of migrants of Virginians and Carolinians who moved north during the 40s. The way one kid says "line" and "playground" is clearly southern.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgsjela9wUo

Black kids in North Philadelphia 20 years later.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xji-SPlAJU

[ILikeMike91]

It is very clear at this point that Baltimore is generally considered as southern as Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis, or Chicago - in other words not southern. This is the common theme expressed, with only a small minority who believe that it is southern. On these forums in particular it is mostly a handful of the same people repeating themselves and refusing to look at all of the polls and studies but instead just the ones that support their claim. One poster routinely uses the UNC Chapel-Hill Southern focus poll to point out that 40% of the Marylanders 100+ Marylanders polled said their community is in the south, but conveniently leaves out the part where only 19% said they are southerners. Hopefully we can continue have an intelligent and classy conversation instead of a fist-pounding shouting match.

[Ball freak]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

AAVE is simply the grammatical rule that governs the arrangement of words. It has nothing to do with an accent. We know little about regional variation in African American accents because, as Labov even admitted, it has never been a focus of serious research by linguists.

That said, there are certainly features of Black speech in the DC area that are heavily southern-influenced (I would say southern-sounding). These features highly correlate with educational attainment and correlate somewhat with age. If you talk to a 57-year old Black woman from Upper Northwest DC who went to "the M Street School" and then later to Howard, she'll likely have a completely neutral accent. On the other hand, if you talk to a 47-year old woman who grew up in Sursum Corda or Simple City, she'll likely have something that's pretty close to a full blown southern accent. Regional accents will always be most detectable in the poorest, lower-working class areas of a region.

So, in my experience, the DC accent ranges from standard neutral English in most middle class to upper middle class Black households to southern in the poorest areas of the city where educational attainment is at its lowest. But that's not always a given: you may meet someone who grew up in a nice suburban cul-de-sac in Bowie or Upper Marlboro who still pronounces the name "Sharon" as "Shern." I guess it depends on how DC they want to be.

Blacks in CHicago and ST. Louis sound Southern yet I don't hear you screaming that makes these places Southern. It is the way ethnic whites speak that define what a city is, not blacks for the most part . If you're going to use blacks to claim Baltimore and DC are Southern then I guess it makes Chicago and St. Louis Southern as well. Next. What makes you a qualified linguistic expert anyway. Show me your degree and maybe I'll listen to you to. Until then you just wasted your time.

[EddieOlSkool]

Originally Posted by Ball freak

Blacks in CHicago and ST. Louis sound Southern yet I don't hear you screaming that makes these places Southern. It is the way ethnic whites speak that define what a city is, not blacks for the most part . If you're going to use blacks to claim Baltimore and DC are Southern then I guess it makes Chicago and St. Louis Southern as well. Next. What makes you a qualified linguistic expert anyway. Show me your degree and maybe I'll listen to you to. Until then you just wasted your time.

Then in that case, Baltimore is very much Southern unlike Philly. Because even Italians from Baltimore sound different than their Philly counterparts.

Hear the guy in the white tanktop with his South Philly accent:
http://www.aetv.com/parking-wars/video/yo-south-philly

Now hear Nancy Pelosi, a native Baltimorean and please tell me that these two sound the same:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrSGk1IM8lE

Really, can you even really say that Philly and Baltimore are the same accent? The guy in the first video still sounds like a Northeasterner. Nancy Pelosi, with a typical Baltimore accent, doesn't even say her vowels the same as the Italian dude from Philly. And Italians are considered the quintessential Northeast ethnic group, more than Poles, Greeks, and the Irish. Practically only the Jews can rival Italians as a quintessential Northeastern ethnic group, but even Baltimore they sound just like other Baltimoreans. Nancy Pelosi sounds like Mel Kiper Jr.!

[Ball freak]

Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool

Then in that case, Baltimore is very much Southern unlike Philly. Because even Italians from Baltimore sound different than their Philly counterparts.

Hear the guy in the white tanktop with his South Philly accent:
http://www.aetv.com/parking-wars/video/yo-south-philly

Now hear Nancy Pelosi, a native Baltimorean and please tell me that these two sound the same:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrSGk1IM8lE

Really, can you even really say that Philly and Baltimore are the same accent? The guy in the first video still sounds like a Northeasterner. Nancy Pelosi, with a typical Baltimore accent, doesn't even say her vowels the same as the Italian dude from Philly. And Italians are considered the quintessential Northeast ethnic group, more than Poles, Greeks, and the Irish. Practically only the Jews can rival Italians as a quintessential Northeastern ethnic group, but even Baltimore they sound just like other Baltimoreans. Nancy Pelosi sounds like Mel Kiper Jr.!

You use individual people to support your claims . I use professional linguistic maps created by the University of Pennsylvania. You essentially just took the best map for dialects out there and called bs on it. As if you know better. You and BajanYankee think you're expert linguists. Too bad modern day accent maps don't back your claims. Please go spend your time on someone willing to listen to your nonsense. Once again Chicago and St. Louis are Southern if you're going to classify Baltimore as Southern. Italian Americans are not the sole qualification for being Northeastern. While Baltimore isn't as high as Philly it is considerably higher than Southern cities and more similar to Midwestern cities than Southern cities in Italian American population. So you can't simply claim Baltimore is not Northeastern because of its Italian American population but you go on and pretend you can. You and BajanYankee are like flies buzzing around a room I wish I had a fly swatter. I've got better things to do with my life than duke it out with people on a mission to Southernize Maryland. So long. You two are on ignore. Don't bother replying because I won't see it.

[wolf39us]

Originally Posted by Ball freak

You use individual people to support your claims . I use professional linguistic maps created by the University of Pennsylvania. You essentially just took the best map for dialects out there and called bs on it. As if you know better. You and BajanYankee think you're expert linguists. Too bad modern day accent maps don't back your claims. Please go spend your time on someone willing to listen to your nonsense. Once again Chicago and St. Louis are Southern if you're going to classify Baltimore as Southern. Italian Americans are not the sole qualification for being Northeastern. While Baltimore isn't as high as Philly it is considerably higher than Southern cities and more similar to Midwestern cities than Southern cities in Italian American population. So you can't simply claim Baltimore is not Northeastern because of its Italian American population but you go on and pretend you can. You and BajanYankee are like flies buzzing around a room I wish I had a fly swatter. I've got better things to do with my life than duke it out with people on a mission to Southernize Maryland. So long. You two are on ignore. Don't bother replying because I won't see it.

LOL. How many times has he said this now?

He discredits himself.