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So if that doesn't work then what is your idea of helping them?
You again are making the assumption that they are looking around to see what other people are doing. All I'm saying is, there are some (not ALL) that simply do not see anything outside of the people they associate with. They don't watch the news, don't interact with people outside their neighborhood and don't do things that you would expect them to.
I never at any point said it was your fault or anyone else. You are selectively reading what you want. Here is what I said, when I responded to you:
That's where we are in society. It happens everywhere.
Oh my goodness... This is just not going anywhere. I want them to HELP THEMSELVES. To show self-reliance and contribute to society in a positive way. That is the only way for any real change to happen on a grand scale. It's not so much the environment as it is the culture.
We are where we are in society because there is no expectation of personal responsibility anymore. Knowing that so many just accept this as the new normal guarantees that nothing will ever improve - in fact it will only get worse.
I'm done. In an effort to keep my sanity I'm going to leave this thread. Go ahead and have the last word and experience whatever satisfaction that brings you...
Oh my goodness... This is just not going anywhere. I want them to HELP THEMSELVES. To show self-reliance and contribute to society in a positive way. That is the only way for any real change to happen on a grand scale. It's not so much the environment as it is the culture.
We are where we are in society because there is no expectation of personal responsibility anymore. Knowing that so many just accept this as the new normal guarantees that nothing will ever improve - in fact it will only get worse.
I'm done. In an effort to keep my sanity I'm going to leave this thread. Go ahead and have the last word and experience whatever satisfaction that brings you...
I've repeatedly said they are responsible for their actions, but I also stated that they have no control over the environment they grew up in. We can't choose our parents. Our parents may or may not teach us things that will help us become productive in life, but we are the by-product of whatever they do or do not teach us. Once you get a certain age, it is definitely our responsibility to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean it was taught to us. Let me put it like this, most able body adults know how to drive, but in order to learn how to drive, someone had to teach us, right? If no one ever sat down and showed us how to drive, then is it fair for someone to expect us to know? But of course if we didn't know how to drive, we tried to and ended up doing something illegal then we are responsible. Not knowing is not an excuse, but it is a reality. That's the only point I've tried to make.
I've repeatedly said they are responsible for their actions, but I also stated that they have no control over the environment they grew up in. We can't choose our parents. Our parents may or may not teach us things that will help us become productive in life, but we are the by-product of whatever they do or do not teach us. Once you get a certain age, it is definitely our responsibility to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean it was taught to us. Let me put it like this, most able body adults know how to drive, but in order to learn how to drive, someone had to teach us, right? If no one ever sat down and showed us how to drive, then is it fair for someone to expect us to know? But of course if we didn't know how to drive, we tried to and ended up doing something illegal then we are responsible. Not knowing is not an excuse, but it is a reality. That's the only point I've tried to make.
OMG, really? Children and adults who have never driven a day in their life know that there are basic rules of the road that drivers should follow - don't drive too fast, don't run red lights, etc.
Just like there are basic rules of humanity (like right and wrong) that should dictate that you should not beat a man to pulp, slam his head on the ground and take his property - I don't care who your parents or where the hell you came from.
OMG, really? Children and adults who have never driven a day in their life know that there are basic rules of the road that drivers should follow - don't drive too fast, don't run red lights, etc.
Just like there are basic rules of humanity (like right and wrong) that should dictate that you should not beat a man to pulp, slam his head on the ground and take his property - I don't care who your parents or where the hell you came from.
I could insert a snarky comment here about how many classes you seem to have missed, especially after that earlier crack implying I was the victim of a Baltimore City Public School miseducation, but I won't.
Your posts keep mentioning that rather than addressing the issue of crime and its perpetrators ("complaining" is the term you used), society should "help" possible nascent criminals.
I haven't read anywhere how you intend to accomplish this. How do we as a society at large determine which environments are conducive to producing criminal or non-criminal members of society? And which particular members of that environment? Who would make that call?
And if we identify a possible criminal-producing home environment, what can we do? We can't remove children from their parents-can you imagine the outcry? We can't supply every home with live-in good role models, there aren't enough of us to go around.
I could insert a snarky comment here about how many classes you seem to have missed, especially after that earlier crack implying I was the victim of a Baltimore City Public School miseducation, but I won't.
Your posts keep mentioning that rather than addressing the issue of crime and its perpetrators ("complaining" is the term you used), society should "help" possible nascent criminals.
I haven't read anywhere how you intend to accomplish this. How do we as a society at large determine which environments are conducive to producing criminal or non-criminal members of society? And which particular members of that environment? Who would make that call?
And if we identify a possible criminal-producing home environment, what can we do? We can't remove children from their parents-can you imagine the outcry? We can't supply every home with live-in good role models, there aren't enough of us to go around.
Didn't you make a crack about Prince George's County first? Hmm...you have a short memory don't you. I guess you don't remember the "And yeah, I'm in Baltimore City, not P.G. Google Gardenville" comment that you made first....
I did not say society should do anything. I just said in general if people see a problem and feel convicted enough to do something, then there is something that can be done. I'm not suggesting that you help the "criminals", I'm suggesting that you help these individuals before they become criminals. You can do what I and many others do, go to schools or community centers in bad areas and ask those places what types of issues kids are dealing with there and how you can help. A lot of time these kids just need mentors or someone that they can be around regularly that shows them a better way and expose them to things that they otherwise would not be exposed to. If you want to get an idea of the effects something like this may have on troubled kids, I would recommend you watch a movie like Freedom Writers. That movie was actually based on a true story.
There isn't a whole lot that you can do about their home life, but you can at least provide them an out from what they normally see. Sometimes kids just need some hope of knowing they can be more. As for the grown men who are doing these things, jail honestly may be the best thing for them, because they aren't going to listen to someone like me and you. Sometimes consequence is the best teacher for them, but for some, they just never change. That is one of the main reasons why you never heard me saying they don't don't deserve to be punish. Obviously they do, they broke laws and they are old enough to accept responsibility regardless of what they have or have not been taught.
I can't speak for everyone, but I know I would feel better if I did something about it whether than just watch these kids suffer. Some kids are born in jacked up situations and it is through no fault of their own. If we could do something like giving up an hour of our time each week or each month, could be the difference between that kid that goes to college and do something with themselves and the people you saw commit this heinous crime.
Didn't you make a crack about Prince George's County first? Hmm...you have a short memory don't you. I guess you don't remember the "And yeah, I'm in Baltimore City, not P.G. Google Gardenville" comment that you made first....
I did not say society should do anything. I just said in general if people see a problem and feel convicted enough to do something, then there is something that can be done. I'm not suggesting that you help the "criminals", I'm suggesting that you help these individuals before they become criminals. You can do what I and many others do, go to schools or community centers in bad areas and ask those places what types of issues kids are dealing with there and how you can help. A lot of time these kids just need mentors or someone that they can be around regularly that shows them a better way and expose them to things that they otherwise would not be exposed to. If you want to get an idea of the effects something like this may have on troubled kids, I would recommend you watch a movie like Freedom Writers. That movie was actually based on a true story.
There isn't a whole lot that you can do about their home life, but you can at least provide them an out from what they normally see. Sometimes kids just need some hope of knowing they can be more. As for the grown men who are doing these things, jail honestly may be the best thing for them, because they aren't going to listen to someone like me and you. Sometimes consequence is the best teacher for them, but for some, they just never change. That is one of the main reasons why you never heard me saying they don't don't deserve to be punish. Obviously they do, they broke laws and they are old enough to accept responsibility regardless of what they have or have not been taught.
I can't speak for everyone, but I know I would feel better if I did something about it whether than just watch these kids suffer. Some kids are born in jacked up situations and it is through no fault of their own. If we could do something like giving up an hour of our time each week or each month, could be the difference between that kid that goes to college and do something with themselves and the people you saw commit this heinous crime.
This all sounds wonderful on its face, but you need to back this up. Provide links, websites (not just movie references), churches, organizations, contact info for reputable groups you have worked with in the past. You can use this forum to tell people how to help - it doesn't do much to just lecture the rest of us. Point folks in a meaningful direction.
I've a long memory, sir. Perhaps yours needs some refreshing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtitans
Depressing? Are you from Baltimore?
Question asked, question answered.
For what its worth, I think your actions with volunteerism are laudable, if for no other reason than they make you feel better. Likewise, I believe, as you do, "Sometimes consequence is the best teacher for them, but for some, they just never change." Real consequences are real motivators, both for bad and for good. People don't change until life is more uncomfortable without change than it is with change.
The reasons for crime don't change, they are the same now as they have always been. What has changed in the past couple of generations is some societal attitudes towards crime. What was once to be feared and shunned is now accepted as a norm in some communities. Oddly enough, some law-abiding persons have come to believe they are somehow complicit, and feel guilty because of it. This has led to failed attempts to address the issue, not through punishment and restitution to victims, but through misguided experiments in "understanding" the criminal, and place blame anywhere but squarely on the perpetrator himself. Wrong headed.
This all sounds wonderful on its face, but you need to back this up. Provide links, websites (not just movie references), churches, organizations, contact info for reputable groups you have worked with in the past. You can use this forum to tell people how to help - it doesn't do much to just lecture the rest of us. Point folks in a meaningful direction.
Just my two cents.
I'm not from Baltimore, so I can't direct you places up there, but again you can go to any school or community center and I'm sure they have programs in place that people can get involved in.
Here goes an article with one of the organizations I am involved with. Gazette.Net: Prince George’s students challenge peers in chess tournament
We deal with kids who are in Title 1 schools, who often times have several behavioral problems because of broken homes, learning disabilities and other issues. These kids often do not get exposed to things like this.
If you look around these communities there are a lot of programs. Just stop by somewhere and ask. Not only will they tell you how to get involve but they will tell you how people like you have helped some of these kids. Some of the kids in the program I deal with have gone from almost getting kicked out of school to being honor roll students.
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