Ashburton (Baltimore, Towson: for sale, real estate, apartments)

[Tinawina]

So some of y'all around here should know I'm fairly new to the area. I'm still figuring things out basically. But I live in Mt Washington and hang out mostly in north & central Baltimore. So far I like the place a lot.

All I have heard from here over and over is how bad East and West Baltimore are. I have actually been a few places in East Baltimore already (to mixed results), but this weekend was the first time I really visited anyone in West Baltimore. First we were at an area near Gwynn Oak Park and then we went to a house I was told was in Ashburton.

Both places were really nice. Well kept houses, manicured lawns, etc. Ashburton was especially cool. There were older people sitting on their porch enjoying to sun, kids playing in the street, etc. Nothing about the pace seemed incredibly dangerous.

So I'm here to ask is there something I'm missing? No one ever mentioned that neighborhood to me before when I got the standard list of "good places to live"? Is it under the radar or something? It's primarily a black neighborhood so is that the reason? It reminded me a lot of the section of East Flatbush, Brooklyn where I grew up.

Also, are there other under the radar type neighborhoods like this? I know I went to visit someone in a neighborhood called Lakeside last month, which turned out to be another African-American neighborhood that seemed really nice that no one had ever mentioned to me before. So what gives?

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by Tinawina

...and then we went to a house I was told was in Ashburton.

Both places were really nice. Well kept houses, manicured lawns, etc. Ashburton was especially cool. There were older people sitting on their porch enjoying to sun, kids playing in the street, etc. Nothing about the pace seemed incredibly dangerous.

So I'm here to ask is there something I'm missing? So what gives?

The Real Estate Wonk: Hidden gem: Ashburton - Baltimore homes, apartments, real estate: Buying, selling, renting and housing news from reporter Jamie Smith Hopkins - baltimoresun.com

The patterns and history of segregation in Baltimore preclude (or have so far) the integration of
established enclaves like Ashburton... but if the Huxtables lived in Baltimore they would live in Ashburton.

[barante]

We have discussed Ashburton in many previous threads. Here is a brief synopsis:

When originally built in the 1920s, Ashburton was intended for white Christians. Jews were prohibited until 1931. After Jews began moving in, white Christians moved out. By the mid-1950s the first blacks were showing an interest in Ashburton, which soon became one of the prime examples of blockbusting -- intentional destabilization of a neighborhood through fear-mongering so that speculators could buy cheap from fleeing whites and sell dearly to well-to-do blacks. (All of this is detailed in Antero Pietila's Not in My Neighborhood: How Bigotry Shaped a Great American City, 2010). Gradually, Ashburton became all-black.

Today's Ashburton is a great neighborhood, but a difficult real estate proposition. Some houses have up-to-date systems, others may still have the 1950s stuff, or earlier. The community, consisting of the black upper middle class, is aging. Vacant houses are a threat. Yet many houses are very desirable. Just today I passed by a huge rancher on Sequoia that is for sale.

From my perspective, Ashburton's problems today are two-fold:

Buppies think it was their grandparents' experience and are not intersted in it. They want to find their Promised Land in the counties, or if well-heeled and mainstream enough in places like Roland Park.

Meanwhile, whites have shown no real estate interest in Ashburton, where a handful live but in mixed unions. This despite the fact that Ashburton prices are compelling and good deals can be negotiated.

This is it in brief. Any questions, please ask.

Ashburton adjoins Hanlon Park, which partiallly overlooks Lake Ashburton, a man-made reservoir. Many good houses there as well.

[Tinawina]

Thank you both for the information.

So do you think the neighborhood has a good chance of holding up long term? We are looking to buy in the next few years. Originally we were planning to stick to Mt Washington, but I'm open to considering a place like Ashburton (or other similar neighborhoods) if we can get more house for the money while still having a good environment for the kids.

Also, is Lakeside as nice as it seemed? I actually looked it op on a map after I left the lady's house I visited, it said it was Ednor Falls/Lakeside.

We love Mt. Washington but one of our concerns was that we wanted to consider living somewhere closer to 95 or the MARC train just in case one of us started working closer to the DC area.

We're an African-American couple with kids BTW, if that helps at all.

[barante]

Over the years, I have been a big promoter of Ashburton. But then again, I always go for unusual solutions, an operating principle that has earned me a reputation of being nuts. I do that in investment, and have done nicely, thank you. In real estate, I see opportunities where others may only see problems.All this presents challenges: My latest two houses I have sold on my own after real estate agents proved incapable of doing so.

And while I recognize the history of race (I am white), I am not blinded by it.

Ashburton v. Lakeside: Both are nice but in my mind there is no comparison. Lakeside, from my perspective, is not as convenient transportation-wise. Ashburton is close to the Metro and the West Baltimore MARC station, close to a viable shopping center with a great supermarket (Mondawmin). And particularly, should you be able to find a house of your dreams on Hilton, you may have a downtown skyline view (over Lake Ashburton) that rivals anything anywhere.

One day, the market wil begin to realize Ashburton potential. That private schools in Roland Park are quite convenient, etc. In the meantime, there are plenty of unresolved issues. But if you operate on a timeline of at least five years, you'll do just fine.

Hit me with a message if you want to pursue this, and I'll put you in touch with a resource.

So why am I not living in Ashburton? My age. I'll be 70 soon. We did a perfectly wonderful decade on Union Square in Southwest Baltimore until we realized that we could not afford the constant, expensive upkeep that a pre-Civil War house requires. We did not want to move to another neighborhoods where we would have to be constantly working for the stability of the neighborhood -- Ashburton, IMO, requires an active homeowner even though it is stable.

Because of the posssibility of mobility issues, we wanted a rancher. Ended up buying a great 1960 rancher in Cheswolde where we are an interracial couple among Orthodox Jews. Again, lots of people volunteered that I was nuts. Love it.

There are all kinds of housing types in Ashburton, including great ranchers. Remember, most houses were built for rich people.

[davecj]

Mayfield over by lake montebello has equally interesting homes.

[Hamish Forbes]

Originally Posted by barante

We have discussed Ashburton in many previous threads. Here is a brief synopsis:

When originally built in the 1920s, Ashburton was intended for white Christians. Jews were prohibited until 1931. After Jews began moving in, white Christians moved out. By the mid-1950s the first blacks were showing an interest in Ashburton, which soon became one of the prime examples of blockbusting -- intentional destabilization of a neighborhood through fear-mongering so that speculators could buy cheap from fleeing whites and sell dearly to well-to-do blacks.

I don't understand this account. It seems to make a distinction between Jews and Whites. I see that the term "Christians" was added here to make the distinction work.

The account goes on to imply that Jews began to replace Whites post-1931 in Ashburton. Thus it would seem that Jews left the neighborhood as Blacks arrived in the mid-1950s, suggesting that in this case, at least, the terms "Jewish flight" and "Jewish bigotry" should supplement the terms "White flight" and "White bigotry" so routinely used to recount these situations as they occurred in Baltimore.

In other words, when a White neighborhood turned Jewish, we had anti-semitism on display (here, Mr. Pietila's book would seem to agree), and when a Jewish Neighborhood turned Black we had Jewish flight, not White flight, and we had Jewish bigotry on display, not White bigotry (but here, Mr. Pietila's book would seem to disagree). In yet other words, if the account of Ashburton's transition is correct, we had "fleeing Jews" as Blacks move in. No?

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes

I don't understand this account. It seems to make a distinction between Jews and Whites. I see that the term "Christians" was added here to make the distinction work.

Do you understand the term "restrictive covenant"?
The white Christians who developed that area (and most everywhere else in B'more) sure did.
Look it up.

The account goes on to imply... In other words, when a White neighborhood turned... No?

No. It goes back to that restrictive covenant thing again.

One set of actions occurred in an environment where the LAW restricted choices.
The other didn't. One could call those later choices "marketing" I suppose... but that's really callous.

[remstone]

Originally Posted by Hamish Forbes

...

You're really not impressing anybody.

[barante]

The traditional pattern of Baltimore ethnic neighborhood change from at least 1910 until the 1970s was:

White Christians abandon a neighborhood when Jews arrive; the more Jewish a neighborhood becomes, the less the "general" white market is interested in it; when the Jewish market also weakens and chronic vacancies appear, someone finally sells to an eager black. This pattern was repeated time and time again in West Baltimore.

A major instrument of fostering this pattern were restrictive covenants, barring blacks, Jews or, in case of Wiltondale in Towson, Italians. Many of these covenants were legal documents. In other cases they were simply understood and honored. By homeowners, the real estate industry, lenders.

In the case of the Roland Park Company properties (Roland Park, Guilford, Homeland, Original Northwood), the covenants prohibited blacks in writing. Jews were prohibited for more than 50 years through a company policy which could be enforced by the Roland Park Company which had to approve all sales, including resales.

Not in My Neighborhood is largely about all this.