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Having visited some of these cities recently, I think I can support personone. I just got back from a trip to St. Louis, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Louisville. The streets St. Louis is strikingly more racially segregated than Baltimore and the few people hanging out on the streets tend to be white.
Though the North St. Louis ghetto is a virtual moonscape of entropy and emptiness that nothing in Baltimore can come close to matching, the rest of the city is generally in better shape than Baltimore. They seem to have pushed their problems to a place that most people never go. I didn't see drug crews taking over the corners anywhere (even in the ghetto.) The beggars in STL weren't numerous but they were really annoying since, unlike in Baltimore, they are legally allowed to try intimidate people that say no by following and yelling at them. Someone also gave me a similar hard time in downtown Indianapolis, but I had no problems in Louisville. In general, the streets of St. Louis feel safer than Baltimore's, despite an overall crime rate that is about the same.
I haven't been to downtown Philadelphia in a couple of years but I am amazed by the number of cops I see on the streets downtown. The place appears to be on lock-down, and it seems to be working. Because of staffing shortages, Baltimore police couldn't do what Philadelphia police do, even if they wanted to.
Indianapolis is surprisingly impoverished, with a lot of deteriorating housing all around the city, except for an a group of attractive and prosperous neighborhoods east of downtown. The potholed streets are even worse than Baltimore's.
The west side of Louisville is obviously very impoverished, though I didn't have time to walk around. Just like in Indianapolis, the east side if downtown is the good side (and very cool.)
Cincinnati is a very odd city... but mostly in a good way. Vacant buildings, of which there were obviously a zillion at one time, are being fixed up by the dozens. Not only that, the work tends to be top quality historic restorations (at least on the exteriors.) This investment is supported by boatloads of investment by local corporations. The corporations have floated a group know as 3C CDC with lots of money that can be lent with the expectation of high risk and low returns. Baltimore's new NIIF fund will be set up with the same type if lending standards. (Jack Young is reported to be an opponent of the program, so it might be killed soon.) Anyway, the combination of tons of investment, lots of high paying jobs, and no nonsense policing have created a virtual Disney Land city unlike anyplace I have been recently. One note of caution is that downtown/Over the Rhine has more commercial space available than it appears can be reasonably supported. There are tons of bars, restaurants, and interesting shops but none of them ever seemed to be crowded. That can only work if commercial rents are held very low (which I suspect is the case.) The area near the University of Cincinnati is also growing quickly. Anyway, the thought of groups of kids heading to downtown/Over the Rhine to cause trouble would be a non-starter. The people in charge of the city obviously won't put up with that.
Someone should tell the beggars and the police in Baltimore that the beggars are not allowed to chase people. That is a new one to me.
Center City Philadelphia and South Philadelphia have always been very well patrolled. From Spring Garden Street on the northern edge of Center City all the way south to the old Navy Yard in South Philly, one cannot walk or drive a block or at the most two, without seeing police on foot, on a bike, on a horse, or in a car. It has been that way for as long as I can remember and has worked very well, keeping those areas very safe for a big city. In comparison, Baltimore policing has been a disaster, making Baltimore the most unsafe big city.
It's only been a disaster because the vacuum of city leadership.
I was in Fells Point on a Friday Halloween a few years ago and the police were everywhere. I mean waaay to many. The city has gone form one extreme to another. Leadership is non existent in Baltimore.
I am still not encountering the problems that people are saying they are having, neither are most people.
There were 309 Homicides in Philly last year. Yeah, Philly,,,,,,,,
Someone should tell the beggars and the police in Baltimore that the beggars are not allowed to chase people. That is a new one to me.
Center City Philadelphia and South Philadelphia have always been very well patrolled. From Spring Garden Street on the northern edge of Center City all the way south to the old Navy Yard in South Philly, one cannot walk or drive a block or at the most two, without seeing police on foot, on a bike, on a horse, or in a car. It has been that way for as long as I can remember and has worked very well, keeping those areas very safe for a big city. In comparison, Baltimore policing has been a disaster, making Baltimore the most unsafe big city.
Beggars in Baltimore know that they are not legally harass people who have turned them down. The city ordinance gives them one crack at each person. On the rare occasions where they have tried to harass me, I have told them that I was going to get the cops and they took off. They know the rules!
Having visited some of these cities recently, I think I can support personone. I just got back from a trip to St. Louis, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Louisville. The streets St. Louis is strikingly more racially segregated than Baltimore and the few people hanging out on the streets tend to be white.
Though the North St. Louis ghetto is a virtual moonscape of entropy and emptiness that nothing in Baltimore can come close to matching, the rest of the city is generally in better shape than Baltimore. They seem to have pushed their problems to a place that most people never go. I didn't see drug crews taking over the corners anywhere (even in the ghetto.) The beggars in STL weren't numerous but they were really annoying since, unlike in Baltimore, they are legally allowed to try intimidate people that say no by following and yelling at them. Someone also gave me a similar hard time in downtown Indianapolis, but I had no problems in Louisville. In general, the streets of St. Louis feel safer than Baltimore's, despite an overall crime rate that is about the same.
I haven't been to downtown Philadelphia in a couple of years but I am amazed by the number of cops I see on the streets downtown. The place appears to be on lock-down, and it seems to be working. Because of staffing shortages, Baltimore police couldn't do what Philadelphia police do, even if they wanted to.
Indianapolis is surprisingly impoverished, with a lot of deteriorating housing all around the city, except for an a group of attractive and prosperous neighborhoods east of downtown. The potholed streets are even worse than Baltimore's.
The west side of Louisville is obviously very impoverished, though I didn't have time to walk around. Just like in Indianapolis, the east side if downtown is the good side (and very cool.)
Cincinnati is a very odd city... but mostly in a good way. Vacant buildings, of which there were obviously a zillion at one time, are being fixed up by the dozens. Not only that, the work tends to be top quality historic restorations (at least on the exteriors.) This investment is supported by boatloads of investment by local corporations. The corporations have floated a group know as 3C CDC with lots of money that can be lent with the expectation of high risk and low returns. Baltimore's new NIIF fund will be set up with the same type if lending standards. (Jack Young is reported to be an opponent of the program, so it might be killed soon.) Anyway, the combination of tons of investment, lots of high paying jobs, and no nonsense policing have created a virtual Disney Land city unlike anyplace I have been recently. One note of caution is that downtown/Over the Rhine has more commercial space available than it appears can be reasonably supported. There are tons of bars, restaurants, and interesting shops but none of them ever seemed to be crowded. That can only work if commercial rents are held very low (which I suspect is the case.) The area near the University of Cincinnati is also growing quickly. Anyway, the thought of groups of kids heading to downtown/Over the Rhine to cause trouble would be a non-starter. The people in charge of the city obviously won't put up with that.
Thanks for sharing I have been to St. Louis and Philly but not to Cinncy (plan to go this year for a Ravens game) and never to Louisville.. I can agree with you assessment of St. Louis.. It seems like they are strategically abandoning parts of the city, but demo buildings rather than leaving them vacant like in Bmo. Seems like many Midwestern cities are taking this approach while east coast cities seem to keep vacants but boarding them up.. Memphis and Detriot have the same "prairie effect". They also seem to be pushing poverty and crime into the older inner ring suburbs into places like Ferguson. I posted an article a while back that describes that the white population of St. Louis is actually increasing while African Americans are leaving the area or moving to the suburbs. I was there years ago.. I don't recall any issue with homeless people.. I did notice that the downtown seemed "desolate" in terms of night life entertainment except for a small area near the Dome.. but that was when the Rams where in town..so .. no clue on now..
I can agree with you on the heavy police presence in Philly. And yes it seems to be very intentional.. I believe there has been a lot of investment in Center City (potentially to the detriment of places like North Central Philly and SW Philly) and a lot of new residents in Center City.. thus Philly is trying to protect that investment...
Interesting about Indy.. I would have thought it would have been more like Charlotte or Nashville and not as many vacants or blight as you described.. Not surprised with Louisville though....
I don't recall a major city's downtown that I have been "afraid" to walk around at night during a visit. Detroit, Atlanta, and Buffalo come to mind but that was because.. in the case of Detroit it seemed desolate with the exception of a few activity nodes like Greektown.... Buffalo seemed desolate all together...Atlanta.. downtown (financial district) seems to roll up at night as there are other entertainment areas.. which leaves it mainly to homeless who are not overly aggressive but are certainly persistent and offer endless 'down on luck' stories. I remember going to Des Moines, IA and Omaha for a conference.. I walked all around their downtowns late at night mainly because the conference hotel was somewhat of a distance away from their entertainment districts.. There was literally no one out but scant amounts of homeless people ... who ducked and dove into alleys and behind garbage bins when they saw me approach.. Seemed like they were stunned that anyone would be out on the street at that hour in those towns and were more afraid of what I may have been up to as opposed to me being afraid of them... LOL.. I do recall in Des Moines an doorman at the hotel looking at me in horror when I told him I was going to walk around downtown at night .. I believe he did the sign of the cross as I walked by...
Baltimore is a mixture of all of these cities. I don't feel threatened walking around downtown at night.. Been down there for dinner, fireworks, concerts, etc.. That said.. I am not necessarily inclined to test my nerves by going into corners of downtown that are closed, vacant or isolated at night... Howard Street is always a roll of the dice for me... I have walked it at night.. its not the most pleasant experience and is certainly dicey.. I certainly feel like I am being 'sized up'... and every "hey yo" or "excuse me sir can ya......" is not responded to. I only walked it a couple of times while waiting for 45 min light rail headway (which is another story..) Places like Baltimore Street are interesting.. again not totally threatening.. but not necessarily the safest place to be.. But those two areas are likely the most "sketchy" if you are going to be trekking around at night...everywhere else that there is no "business reason" to go.. you shouldnt go anyway.....
Last edited by Woodlands; 05-13-2019 at 08:39 AM..
Baltimore is a mixture of all of these cities. I don't feel threatened walking around downtown at night.. Been down there for dinner, fireworks, concerts, etc.. That said.. I am not necessarily inclined to test my nerves by going into corners of downtown that are closed, vacant or isolated at night... Howard Street is always a roll of the dice for me... I have walked it at night.. its not the most pleasant experience and is certainly dicey.. I certainly feel like I am being 'sized up'... and every "hey yo" or "excuse me sir can ya......" is not responded to. I only walked it a couple of times while waiting for 45 min light rail headway (which is another story..) Places like Baltimore Street are interesting.. again not totally threatening.. but not necessarily the safest place to be.. But those two areas are likely the most "sketchy" if you are going to be trekking around at night...everywhere else that there is no "business reason" to go.. you shouldnt go anyway.....
I wouldn't walk the places you have even in daytime. In the 1950s and even the 60s, different story, but no more.
USMC could always use a few more good men, if you're interested.
Thanks for sharing I have been to St. Louis and Philly but not to Cinncy (plan to go this year for a Ravens game) and never to Louisville.. I can agree with you assessment of St. Louis.. It seems like they are strategically abandoning parts of the city, but demo buildings rather than leaving them vacant like in Bmo. Seems like many Midwestern cities are taking this approach while east coast cities seem to keep vacants but boarding them up.. Memphis and Detriot have the same "prairie effect". They also seem to be pushing poverty and crime into the older inner ring suburbs into places like Ferguson. I posted an article a while back that describes that the white population of St. Louis is actually increasing while African Americans are leaving the area or moving to the suburbs. I was there years ago.. I don't recall any issue with homeless people.. I did notice that the downtown seemed "desolate" in terms of night life entertainment except for a small area near the Dome.. but that was when the Rams where in town..so .. no clue on now..
I can agree with you on the heavy police presence in Philly. And yes it seems to be very intentional.. I believe there has been a lot of investment in Center City (potentially to the detriment of places like North Central Philly and SW Philly) and a lot of new residents in Center City.. thus Philly is trying to protect that investment...
Interesting about Indy.. I would have thought it would have been more like Charlotte or Nashville and not as many vacants or blight as you described.. Not surprised with Louisville though....
I don't recall a major city's downtown that I have been "afraid" to walk around at night during a visit. Detroit, Atlanta, and Buffalo come to mind but that was because.. in the case of Detroit it seemed desolate with the exception of a few activity nodes like Greektown.... Buffalo seemed desolate all together...Atlanta.. downtown (financial district) seems to roll up at night as there are other entertainment areas.. which leaves it mainly to homeless who are not overly aggressive but are certainly persistent and offer endless 'down on luck' stories. I remember going to Des Moines, IA and Omaha for a conference.. I walked all around their downtowns late at night mainly because the conference hotel was somewhat of a distance away from their entertainment districts.. There was literally no one out but scant amounts of homeless people ... who ducked and dove into alleys and behind garbage bins when they saw me approach.. Seemed like they were stunned that anyone would be out on the street at that hour in those towns and were more afraid of what I may have been up to as opposed to me being afraid of them... LOL.. I do recall in Des Moines an doorman at the hotel looking at me in horror when I told him I was going to walk around downtown at night .. I believe he did the sign of the cross as I walked by...
Baltimore is a mixture of all of these cities. I don't feel threatened walking around downtown at night.. Been down there for dinner, fireworks, concerts, etc.. That said.. I am not necessarily inclined to test my nerves by going into corners of downtown that are closed, vacant or isolated at night... Howard Street is always a roll of the dice for me... I have walked it at night.. its not the most pleasant experience and is certainly dicey.. I certainly feel like I am being 'sized up'... and every "hey yo" or "excuse me sir can ya......" is not responded to. I only walked it a couple of times while waiting for 45 min light rail headway (which is another story..) Places like Baltimore Street are interesting.. again not totally threatening.. but not necessarily the safest place to be.. But those two areas are likely the most "sketchy" if you are going to be trekking around at night...everywhere else that there is no "business reason" to go.. you shouldnt go anyway.....
Downtown St. Louis is no more desolate in terms of energy and liveliness of nightlife than Baltimore. Once you get away from Pratt Street and the harbor, Baltimore’s liveliness drops off quickly. In fact, I have seen a lot more traditional nightlife crowds (as far as hustle/bustle) in downtown St. Louis vs downtown Baltimore. There are tons of breweries, music venues, restaurants, etc in the heart of downtown St. Louis that give it more of a nightlife feel than Baltimore. The following is not to be used as gospel (I definitely don’t agree it is anywhere near the top city in terms of nightlife; it eliminated the major cities due to size factored into the ratings) but gives you a feel of the nightlife activity in downtown St. Louis. It is certainly not “desolate” compared to Baltimore.
In my time in Philly, I lived in University City, which obviously has a great police presence. But I agree with the previous poster, Philly overall has a good police presence in areas tourists would frequent.
Last edited by personone; 05-13-2019 at 03:08 PM..
Downtown St. Louis is no more desolate in terms of energy and liveliness of nightlife than Baltimore. Once you get away from Pratt Street and the harbor, Baltimore’s liveliness drops off quickly. In fact, I have seen a lot more traditional nightlife crowds (as far as hustle/bustle) in downtown St. Louis vs downtown Baltimore. There are tons of breweries, music venues, restaurants, etc in the heart of downtown St. Louis that give it more of a nightlife feel than Baltimore. The following is not to be used as gospel (I definitely don’t agree it is anywhere near the top city in terms of nightlife; it eliminated the major cities due to size factored into the ratings) but gives you a feel of the nightlife activity in downtown St. Louis. It is certainly not “desolate” compared to Baltimore.
In my time in Philly, I lived in University City, which obviously has a great police presence. But I agree with the previous poster, Philly overall has a good police presence in areas tourists would frequent.
You need to get out more. The liveliness is east of the Harbor. When the hell are you going down there, in the winter?
Anything below 70 degrees everybody is cold.
The city is allays graded by the Inner Harbor by people that don't know the city.
You need to get out more. The liveliness is east of the Harbor. When the hell are you going down there, in the winter?
Anything below 70 degrees everybody is cold.
The city is allays graded by the Inner Harbor by people that don't know the city.
Nice try boss......this thread and the topic being discussed is "downtown!!!!" What are you talking about being east? Canton? Fells Point? That's not "downtown" smart guy
People are "allays"[sic] probably going to involve the inner harbor when grading Baltimore when you are talking about "downtown"......duh!!!!
Nice try boss......this thread and the topic being discussed is "downtown!!!!" What are you talking about being east? Canton? Fells Point? That's not "downtown" smart guy
People are "allays"[sic] probably going to involve the inner harbor when grading Baltimore when you are talking about "downtown"......duh!!!!
Learn your own city man!!!!!!
Anybody paying attention to this person is not getting accurate information.
Technically there never really has been a downtown because of the fact of a large body of water right in the middle of the city.
Anybody that knows anything and knows the area knows the action has always been just outside of the harbor.
Even 30 years ago.
As far as being unsafe it was more unsafe in the first half of the 20th century than it is now.
As I said in another thread many people would dine in the city in the 70's, and 80's because the options were limited in the suburbs. If it was so unsafe why were people going down there when it was much more sketchy in that time period then it is now.
Just baloney. You could make a solid argument that Woodlawn, or around Frankford Avenue, and Bel Air Road are a whole lot less safe than anything in the downtown area.
I have never been to the other cities mentioned. But I do know Baltimore. My Father's wife did grow up just outside of Omaha though, and would know that city, but not I.
I have to visit downtown Baltimore (Inner Harbor area) in a few days and I’m scared. I’m going to a concert so I’ll have to be there at night. Reassure me that the probability of being attacked by teen gangs isn’t THAT high, please. I Googled and it seems like these attacks were mostly happening in 2017? Has police presence gotten better? I try to avoid danger whenever possible but I can’t miss this concert. Thanks!
I wouldn’t worry about visiting downtown Baltimore or the Inner Harbor. Those are safe, fun places. I go there with my family all the time.
I have seen many bands perform at the arena. No problem at all, except that it gets crowded. A lot of people may be drunk or stoned, but that happens at any rock concert. Has nothing to do with Baltimore.
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