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Old 03-11-2021, 07:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMoreJuice View Post
I don't think our previous politicians see it that way. I have seen some signs of gentrification happening over in SW, ranging from Union Square through the B&O Railroad Museum. DC and Baltimore are two different animals for sure. The challenge for DC is affordable housing. One of my co-workers just retired as a GS-15 in the government, and bought a small townhouse in the hood of SE DC. I think he paid 400k for it. 400k in Baltimore affords you a nice house in Fells/Canton, maybe even Bolton.

Affordable housing will be a breaking point for many people in the future. Not that I am a supporter by any means, but I suspect gentrification will increase in Baltimore over time.
I hear ya.. but Union Square and SW is a tough one.. I see it closer to Washington Blvd, around Union Square and Hollins Market.. and in the medical center just west of MLK.. I went to visit a friend in Union Square and we walked down to Hollins Market pre COVID. all I can say is Whoa! There are still a lot of work that has to be done in that area.. though I do see signs of progress (though since COVID I have seem many of those small businesses that were opened have been closed permanently.)There are several other Squares in east and west Baltimore that have good bones as well so maybe one day some of them will get there...

One thing I can say is the "gentry" however you want to classify this group..... move into these areas and often become the victim of property crimes and maybe, at worst, a mugging/robbery... which is horrible. However; they are usually.. let me repeat USUALLY.... not the victims of shootings or being murdered like many long term residents of the same neighborhood. The times it has happened it is widely publicized. The two incidents in Baltimore that are emblazoned in my mind was the guy that was mugged in Canton and when he fell he hit his head on the curb and died after being in a comma... The second one was they guy that was killed while talking on the phone while walking home from Penn Station to JHU through Old Goucher both were widely covered.. there may have been others.. but I cant think of them right off.
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Old 03-11-2021, 07:28 AM
 
373 posts, read 148,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMoreJuice View Post
I detect a right-wing bias and some projecting on your part. I generally do not blame a political party on a broad scale because the world is too complex. But hey, maybe the Democrats did some major damage. I would like to know more of a specific level.

Today's Baltimore is a reflection of yesterday's Baltimore. Was it Democratic policy that constructed the social "White L" in Baltimore? How were the Baltimore Democrats able to retain its wealthy white neighborhoods in the city, but the Democrats in the mid-west cities experienced a harsh upper class white flight (Detroit, Cleveland, ect)? And is that considered a win?

You do know that although Baltimore was as racist of a city as the next, the black middle class stood strong mid-20th century. One day, blue collar corporations didn't feel like paying people livable wages anymore and went oversea's for cheap labor. Was it Democratic policies that constructed the atmosphere for business to make this decision and outsource overseas? Or was it just pure corporate greed and the desire for cheaper labor? And if a Republican were in office at that time, what would the Republican propose that would be a better deal than slave labor in the East?
I detect a left wing bias and projecting on your part.

The facts are simple. There has not been a Republican mayor in Baltimore since the 1950s. In that that 70 years the state government has been thoroughly dominated by Democrats with only a handful of Republican governors (3?). Politics in Baltimore and Maryland are thoroughly dominated by Democrats.

For example, it was the Democratic establishment that raised taxes enough in the 1980s that caused a number of major banks previously based in Baltimore to move to Delaware.

You can play the blame game as much as you want, but politically, every major and local decision in Baltimore and the state of Maryland has been made by the Democratic establishment since the 1950s. If there is a mess, they own it, including their inability to deal with it. The black middle class that fled Baltimore for the suburbs, were they Republicans? No. All the decisions that were made, as well as decisions that were not made, were by Democrats.
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Old 03-11-2021, 12:15 PM
 
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The challenges in this "whose to blame for Baltimore's plight". On the one hand "yes" democrats have been in control.. but the world doesnt end at Baltimore's City Limits nor does Baltimore live and die by what is inside the city limits..There are statewide, national, and international influence.. Post WWII gave rise to the Federal Housing Administration which gave rise to FHA Loans and eventually VA Loans..which encouraged more middle income.. mostly whites to leave town in search of better housing and what was now the Suburban dream.. Most would likely not have stayed in the City as America was becoming more mobile and most of us dont live in the same neighborhood where we grew up. The same mobility was enhanced by new interstate highways also made possible by the Federal Highway Administration. Democrats and Republicans both were complicit in the rise of these Federal Agencies as they were a windfall for contractors, builders, and the related industries via contracts.. not to mention Banks to fund the housing boom that followed..

Then you had the decline of industry via factories moving south and eventually to Mexico.. Again, both Dem and GOP played a role.. .With the flight of business and industry on the macro level.. the city had no choice but to raise taxes which we know today only exacerbated the problem. So they raise taxes to pay for services and schools.. the more they do.. the more people leave. .Self fulfilling prophecy.
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Old 03-13-2021, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
2,361 posts, read 1,694,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DXBtoFL View Post
I detect a left wing bias and projecting on your part.
Your intuition has failed you. I am a moderate.

Quote:
The facts are simple. There has not been a Republican mayor in Baltimore since the 1950s. In that that 70 years the state government has been thoroughly dominated by Democrats with only a handful of Republican governors (3?). Politics in Baltimore and Maryland are thoroughly dominated by Democrats.

For example, it was the Democratic establishment that raised taxes enough in the 1980s that caused a number of major banks previously based in Baltimore to move to Delaware.

You can play the blame game as much as you want, but politically, every major and local decision in Baltimore and the state of Maryland has been made by the Democratic establishment since the 1950s. If there is a mess, they own it, including their inability to deal with it. The black middle class that fled Baltimore for the suburbs, were they Republicans? No. All the decisions that were made, as well as decisions that were not made, were by Democrats.
You have unfinished business. Please refer back to my questions.

1) What were the specific Democratic policies that created black inequality while maintaining its white upper class? How were the Democratic able to maintain its' most prominent neighborhoods with failed policy?

2) What specific Democratic policies forced business (truly forced with no other options) to outsource their jobs for slave labor?

3) If a Republican tenure were in Baltimore during that time, what policies would of kept Baltimore business not enticed from cheap slave labor?


If you want your point to stand out, I need to understand where you are coming from.
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Old 03-13-2021, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
2,361 posts, read 1,694,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodlands View Post
The challenges in this "whose to blame for Baltimore's plight". On the one hand "yes" democrats have been in control.. but the world doesnt end at Baltimore's City Limits nor does Baltimore live and die by what is inside the city limits..There are statewide, national, and international influence.. Post WWII gave rise to the Federal Housing Administration which gave rise to FHA Loans and eventually VA Loans..which encouraged more middle income.. mostly whites to leave town in search of better housing and what was now the Suburban dream.. Most would likely not have stayed in the City as America was becoming more mobile and most of us dont live in the same neighborhood where we grew up. The same mobility was enhanced by new interstate highways also made possible by the Federal Highway Administration. Democrats and Republicans both were complicit in the rise of these Federal Agencies as they were a windfall for contractors, builders, and the related industries via contracts.. not to mention Banks to fund the housing boom that followed..

Then you had the decline of industry via factories moving south and eventually to Mexico.. Again, both Dem and GOP played a role.. .With the flight of business and industry on the macro level.. the city had no choice but to raise taxes which we know today only exacerbated the problem. So they raise taxes to pay for services and schools.. the more they do.. the more people leave. .Self fulfilling prophecy.
That poster is not well read in Baltimore history. He is just salivating over the thought of a Republican lowering taxes and supporting gun rights. Funny thing is Republicans have a large spending budget of their own, so they might cut the taxes of the wealthy, but who will have to fill the void?

As you said, Blacks and whites heavily relied on blue collar industry in Baltimore. When industry moved south and outsourced in other countries for slave labor, there is nothing any politician can do it about it. Give an American a decent wage and insurance, or hardly nothing with no insurance? In fact, it would be plausible that a Republican would support relaxed laws that support the business over the worker. The black Baltimorean lost his job and most likely his home, and ta large part of that community never recovered. White Baltimore suffered slightly but recovered with other opportunities. Those in Roland Park/Guilford profited and retained the health of their neighborhoods.

If Baltimore retained its industry, East and West Baltimore would by in large retained its composed neighborhoods.
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Old 03-14-2021, 05:42 AM
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
31,495 posts, read 70,390,130 times
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Originally Posted by BMoreJuice View Post
Your intuition has failed you. I am a moderate.
pssst... that's what about half the country calls being liberal.



If you're not on the right (with them) then all that remains (in their world view) is being on the left.
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Old 03-14-2021, 10:23 AM
 
6,952 posts, read 10,519,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMoreJuice View Post
Your intuition has failed you. I am a moderate.



You have unfinished business. Please refer back to my questions.

1) What were the specific Democratic policies that created black inequality while maintaining its white upper class? How were the Democratic able to maintain its' most prominent neighborhoods with failed policy?

2) What specific Democratic policies forced business (truly forced with no other options) to outsource their jobs for slave labor?

3) If a Republican tenure were in Baltimore during that time, what policies would of kept Baltimore business not enticed from cheap slave labor?


If you want your point to stand out, I need to understand where you are coming from.

Vestiges of middle class baltimore still exist in parts of Belair Edison, Northwoods, neighborhoods along Loch Raven and the Alameda , Gardenville/Frankford, and the east end of Northern pkwy ..not to mention upper middle incomes areas that include upper middle income blacks many being transplants living in Ashburton , Howard Park Forest Park and Ten Hills ...Many of these areas as were abandoned by whites or jewish familia of similar incomes and repopulated by African Americans of similar incomes moving up from East and West Baltimore leaving only the very poor behind and alot of vacancies. Those areas could not sustain themselves and the void was filled with crime drugs and poverty we are now as there was no one else left ....one interesting exception is east Baltimore where you have a growing latino population carving out a niche that overlaps a portion of black east baltimore and the ethnic white areas of SE Baltimore around Highlandtown and far east Fayette Lombard etc
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Old Today, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Baltimore
2,361 posts, read 1,694,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodlands View Post
Vestiges of middle class baltimore still exist in parts of Belair Edison, Northwoods, neighborhoods along Loch Raven and the Alameda , Gardenville/Frankford, and the east end of Northern pkwy ..not to mention upper middle incomes areas that include upper middle income blacks many being transplants living in Ashburton , Howard Park Forest Park and Ten Hills ...Many of these areas as were abandoned by whites or jewish familia of similar incomes and repopulated by African Americans of similar incomes moving up from East and West Baltimore leaving only the very poor behind and alot of vacancies. Those areas could not sustain themselves and the void was filled with crime drugs and poverty we are now as there was no one else left ....one interesting exception is east Baltimore where you have a growing latino population carving out a niche that overlaps a portion of black east baltimore and the ethnic white areas of SE Baltimore around Highlandtown and far east Fayette Lombard etc
Good points. I do take the position that these neighborhoods are smaller in scale compared to the impact it had on East and West Baltimore in large. White's in Baltimore (and the United States in general) faired much better during Jim Crow and Post Jim Crow.

My highlight to the previous poster is he calls out Democratic leadership for the 'bad stuff', but ignores the 'good stuff' like the maintenance of upper and middle class neighborhoods, unlike our midwest counterparts.
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Old Today, 05:56 PM
 
6,952 posts, read 10,519,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMoreJuice View Post
Good points. I do take the position that these neighborhoods are smaller in scale compared to the impact it had on East and West Baltimore in large. White's in Baltimore (and the United States in general) faired much better during Jim Crow and Post Jim Crow.

My highlight to the previous poster is he calls out Democratic leadership for the 'bad stuff', but ignores the 'good stuff' like the maintenance of upper and middle class neighborhoods, unlike our midwest counterparts.
Certainly, jobs in City and State Government help give rise to a Black Middle Class as did the integration of Labor Unions along the Baltimore Ports that allowed many Blacks to gain skilled labor on the docks.. I cants say that Republicans of that era were against these advances but the Democrats were certainly outfront... There is a good book out that talks about the affects of the integration of labor unions in Baltimore and how it went from being controlled by ethnic whites that inhabited Canton, Little Italy, Fells, Highlandtown and Greektown to being more diverse.. It also notes that that change along with desegregation of neighborhoods and schools...started a trend.. though slower than in the deep south.. of northern (yeah Baltimore is not really northern per se) whites into the Republican party.. The pace increased along with suburbanization following the riots of the late 60s and was completed in the Reagan era..Again not saying the GOP would have done any better or worse..... but the politics of political parties is often complicated and very generational

Last edited by Woodlands; Today at 07:25 PM..
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Old Today, 07:31 PM
 
6,952 posts, read 10,519,062 times
Reputation: 2059
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMoreJuice View Post
Good points. I do take the position that these neighborhoods are smaller in scale compared to the impact it had on East and West Baltimore in large. White's in Baltimore (and the United States in general) faired much better during Jim Crow and Post Jim Crow.

My highlight to the previous poster is he calls out Democratic leadership for the 'bad stuff', but ignores the 'good stuff' like the maintenance of upper and middle class neighborhoods, unlike our midwest counterparts.
Certainly, jobs in City and State Government help give rise to a Black Middle Class as did the integration of Labor Unions along the Baltimore Ports that allowed many Blacks to gain higher paying skilled labor jobs on the docks.. I cant say that Republicans of that era did not play a role in these advances but the Democrats were certainly out front... There is a good book out that talks about the affects of the integration of labor unions in Baltimore and how it went from being controlled by ethnic whites that inhabited Canton, Little Italy, Fells, Highlandtown and Greektown to being more diverse.. It also notes that that change along with desegregation of neighborhoods and schools...started a trend.. though slower than in the deep south.. of northern (yeah Baltimore is not really northern per se) working class whites into the Republican party.. The pace increased along with suburbanization following the riots of the late 60s and was completed in the Reagan era and a likely and uptick in this movement during the Trump era though most of that demographic are likely in the County (Baltimore, Carroll and Anne Arundel) in more sizable numbers.

As we discussed earlier.. the movement of industries to the south and eventually overseas along with Globalization was brought on by both parties at one time or another helped increase the city's decline....The politics of political parties is often complicated and very generational and people migrated in and out of the parties for their own perceived self/group interest.. Would the GOP have done anything to change the plight of the city?.. Maybe.. but its difficult to tell given how both parties transition from the 1950s through the present and the external pressures that have overarching impacts on the city's economy

Last edited by Woodlands; Today at 07:46 PM..
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