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The 12 individuals who will be considered by the Expansion Era Committee in December for Hall of Fame Induction in 2011: Former players Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons and Rusty Staub; former manager Billy Martin; and executives Pat Gillick, Marvin Miller and George Steinbrenner.
Since other baseball executives have been enshrined, it seems preposterous to continue to exclude Marvin Miller whose impact on MLB is immense. His support has crept up a bit in each election, but Miller is 93 years old and his enshrinement might take place after his burial unless enlightenment should suddenly overwhelm the voters.
I also think it seriously wrong to have not enshrined Billy Martin before now. If you had a losing club and your goal was to turn them into winners in the most rapid possible manner, among all who have managed at the ML level, no one has ever been as skilled as Billy Martin in accomplishing such miracles. He did it so often, in so many different places, with such different rosters with which to work, that we cannot believe that the serial turnarounds Martin produced were coincidence. The man knew how to take a group of players and make them win ballgames...the object of hiring a manager. Is there another manager anywhere with a before/after track record to match Martin?
Further...this is the Hall of Fame....and did not Martin make himself famous? Was he not as high profile as a manager gets?
As for the players listed, I wouldn't want to see any of them make it, regardless of whatever arguments may be advanced on behalf of their talents and contributiions. I am against the concept of a Veteran's Committee on the grounds that if after 15 rejection votes by the people who saw the fellows play, they are established as non Hall material.
The 12 individuals who will be considered by the Expansion Era Committee in December for Hall of Fame Induction in 2011: Former players Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons and Rusty Staub;
No
Blue
Guidry
John
Oliver
Simmons
Garvey ( ? )
Yes
Concepcion
Staub
Martin for sure. He was an awesome coach and brought out the best of his players no matter who they were.
The 12 individuals who will be considered by the Expansion Era Committee in December for Hall of Fame Induction in 2011: Former players Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons and Rusty Staub;
No
Blue
Guidry
John
Oliver
Simmons
Garvey ( ? )
Yes
Concepcion
Staub
Martin for sure. He was an awesome coach and brought out the best of his players no matter who they were.
Tommy John should definitely make it. If they name an injury or illness after you, it shows how important you are (sarcasm).
I think death should disqualify any former players/managers/executives from being considered for induction. It seems so pointless and they probably can't fully appreciate the honor. Famous baseball writer George Bernard Shaw once said; "Accolades are wasted on the dead", or something like that.
I think death should disqualify any former players/managers/executives from being considered for induction. It seems so pointless and they probably can't fully appreciate the honor. Famous baseball writer George Bernard Shaw once said; "Accolades are wasted on the dead", or something like that.
Shaw was right. We should change all the faces on Mt. Rushmore to living persons.
More RBIs than Bench, and only 41 behind Berra. More hits than Bench or Berra or Fisk, any other catcher in history before Ivan Rodriguez.
Simmons was a below average defensive catcher, clocking in at minus 5.5 Defensive WAR for his career. To be a Hall player he would have needed to have been spectacular with the bat, but he was just pretty good, 55 offensive WAR in twenty one seasons. Does he belong in the same company as Johnny Bench who produced 64.8 Offensive WAR and 6.5 defensive WAR in his 17 seasons? Or with Berra...59.3 Offensive WAR, 2.7 defensive WAR. Carlton Fisk? 64.7 offensive WAR, 2.6 defensive WAR. Or the other Pudge? 51.3 offensive WAR, and an astonishing 16.4 defensive WAR.
Simmons was manifestly inferior to any of those you have listed. That he compares favorably in a few selected statistical categories is not the way to evaluate his canidacy.
That he compares favorably in a few selected statistical categories is not the way to evaluate his canidacy.
Not a Hall of Famer.
90% of all Hall of Famers are in there ONLY because they have "a few selected" glittering lifetime stats in exactly the same RBI and Hits department. And now you say those are invalid metrics, and suddenly should be rendered irrelevant? And change the criteria all of a sudden just to keep Simmons out because you don't think he's as worthy as the defensively scintillating Al Oliver or Rusty Staub?
BTW, I think Robin Ventura ought to go in. Only 3 players in MLB history have been named Robin, and the other two are in.
90% of all Hall of Famers are in there ONLY because they have "a few selected" glittering lifetime stats in exactly the same RBI and Hits department. And now you say those are invalid metrics, and suddenly should be rendered irrelevant? And change the criteria all of a sudden just to keep Simmons out because you don't think he's as worthy as the defensively scintillating Al Oliver or Rusty Staub?
BTW, I think Robin Ventura ought to go in. Only 3 players in MLB history have been named Robin, and the other two are in.
We are now favored with superior diagnostic tools. When such a thing takes place in other fields such as medicine or auto repair, everyone welcomes and accepts that a more advanced way to do something has arrived and that clinging to the old methods is pointless and inefficient.
Except in the area of baseball stats. You can move with the new, or you can remain a dinosaur.
The argument isn't that the old means is now invalid, it is that they are inferior.
Bill James has developed two statistical metrics. I'm not going to judge him, nor you, but James's evaluations have earned some lasting respect, and I'm not ready to blow him off yet.
Ted Simmons:
Similar players (5 HoFers with *) Based on batting only.
1. Miguel Tejada (838)
2. Alan Trammell (831)
3. Joe Torre (820)
4. Carlton Fisk (819) *
5. Gary Carter (817) *
6. Lou Whitaker (817)
7. Barry Larkin (807)
8. Joe Cronin (806) *
9. Yogi Berra (797) *
10. Ryne Sandberg (793) *
Hall of Fame Monitor --- Likelihood of being inducted, based on offense, defense, position, and other factors.
Batting - 124. Likely HOFer ≈ 100, Virtual Cinch = 130.
For comparison:
Simmons: Monitor 124, similar to 5 HoFers.
Oliver: Monitor 116, similar to 4 HoFers
Garvey: Monitor 130, similar to 1 HoFer
Concepcion: Monitor 106, similar to 3 HoFers
Staub: Monitor 58, similar to 2 HoFers.
Last edited by jtur88; 11-26-2010 at 11:59 PM..
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