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Old 10-27-2011, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,285 posts, read 15,308,502 times
Reputation: 6658

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Filihok: Hitter vs Pitcher match ups. They don't mean a thing.

Quote:
The 2011 MLB Playoffs is coming to a close. One, maybe two game remain. Which team wins will come down to which team plays the smallest ball, gets the clutchest hits, and whose manager makes the shrewdest moves.

Inevitably, some of those moves will be based on hitter vs pitcher match ups. We'll hear that Ian Kinsler is 0 for 8 in his career against Octavio Dotel. So, we'll expect Dotel to face Kinsler in any high leverage situations late in games. Should we expect Dotel to continue to retire Kinsler? Should we expect Kinsler to go 0 for 9 against Dotel? 0 for 10? 0 for 20? 0 for 50?

This blog post was brought about by my reading this article by Tom Tango. In the comments section there is a link to this article by Dan Fox. Both articles are good reads and written by much smarter and better writers than I - so read them.

In the second article, Dan Fox posts a table with the most statistically significant batter owning pitcher match ups from 2003 to 2005. These 10 batters combined to go 132 for 296 for a .446 batting average against their ******* the pitchers they faced.

If the narrative is true, that a hitter who hits .446 against a pitcher will be likely to continue to succeed against that pitcher, then we should be able to look back and see continued above average performance. So, do we?



Uh...no. The same hitter vs pitcher matchups resulted in an 18 for 77 performance from 2006 onwards. That's a .234 batting average.

Hitter vs pitcher match ups are just not statistically relevant sample sizes.







Here are the links to the baseball-reference hitter vs pitcher match ups I looked up.
Jeter vs Lopez
Wilson vs Sheets
Helton vs Perez
Chavez vs Moyer
Rollins vs Pavano
Kielty vs Buehrle
Byrnes vs Buehrle
Walker vs Clemens
Nixon vs Halladay
Damon vs Colon
*Click the link to click the links, see the awesomely (and obvious) embedded video and find out what lies behind those asterisks just above the chart.
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Old 09-27-2012, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,285 posts, read 15,308,502 times
Reputation: 6658
Hitter vs pitcher matchups don't mean a thing based solely about their outcomes. But the process certainly does, and is interesting as well.

Baseball Prospectus has a new toy that allows one to look at detailed pitch data of historical hitter vs pitcher matchups.

Their article will describe it better than I ever could

Baseball Prospectus | Baseball Prospectus News: Announcing the PITCHf/x Matchup Analysis Tool

I look forward to playing with this during the playoffs.
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Old 09-27-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,129,546 times
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Batter/pitcher match ups do not mean anything, but the process by which this meaningless data is calculated is interesting?
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,992,173 times
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Pitcher A and batter B might have faced each other 20 or 30 times last year in AAA ball. But that is not just ignored, it is denied by announcers who say they never faced each other before.
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,285 posts, read 15,308,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Batter/pitcher match ups do not mean anything, but the process by which this meaningless data is calculated is interesting?
Hitter vs pitcher matchups aren't predictive of future performance.

Yes, I think it's interesting to have data about how pitchers have thrown to hitters available.

CC Sabathia vs Prince Fielder
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Old 10-08-2012, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,285 posts, read 15,308,502 times
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Via twitter two well known baseball 'experts' have brought up pitcher/hitter past performances.

Ken Rosenthal
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/st...24770135498752
Quote:
Combined batting average of #Braves' position players on today's roster against #STLCards' Lohse: .331. Chipper 6-13, HR. Prado 6-14.
and
Jason Stark
https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/255405529772478466
Quote:
Meanwhile, Werth, Harper, Morse, Desmond & Espinosa are a combined 17 for 43 (.395) lifetime vs. Jaime Garcia
Those hitters combined to go 1 - 11 in those games.

Past pitcher/hitter matchups don't predict future performance.

Last edited by filihok; 10-08-2012 at 05:51 PM..
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:24 AM
 
6,977 posts, read 5,709,974 times
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It doesnt mean much, even if the sample is small. THese are amazing major league hitters, if you make a bad pitch, they can crush it no matter how poorly they've done in the past. A hitter can be 0 for 50 but if that pitcher makes a mistake, the guy can hit it in the seats.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,285 posts, read 15,308,502 times
Reputation: 6658
https://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/257276697332813825

Quote:
Delmon Young, who leads off 2nd inning for #tigers, is a career 11-for-19 (.579) against Andy Pettitte. #yankees
Young was 1 - 3 vs Pettite
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,285 posts, read 15,308,502 times
Reputation: 6658
Filihok: Hitter vs Pitcher matchups don't mean a thing. 2012 Playoff version

Quote:
plenty of baseball "experts" cited past hitter/pitcher matchups during the 2012 playoffs. I recorded as many of these as a I found on Twitter (I did not record the statements made on air, since I'd have no linkable proof that the statements were made) and tracked the outcomes during the playoffs.

Here are the statements for hitters who had had success against the pitchers they were facing:

https://twitter.com/jaysonst/status/255405529772478466
Meanwhile, Werth, Harper, Morse, Desmond & Espinosa are a combined 17 for 43 (.395) lifetime vs. Jaime Garcia.
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/st...24770135498752
Combined batting average of #Braves' position players on today's roster against#STLCards' Lohse: .331. Chipper 6-13, HR. Prado 6-14.

https://twitter.com/jcrasnick/status/257276697332813825
Delmon Young, who leads off 2nd inning for#tigers, is a career 11-for-19 (.579) against Andy Pettitte. #yankees

The hitters mentioned by name combined to hit .500 (23 for 46) against the named pitchers. How'd they do in the playoffs?

2 for 14. That's a .149 batting average.



Hitter vs Pitcher past performance DOES NOT predict future performance.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Hometown of Jason Witten
5,985 posts, read 4,379,635 times
Reputation: 1922
We've known ever since Intro to Prob and Stats that past performance does not indicate future results. We also know that the sacrifice bunt is a stupid and useless strategy and that hitter "protection" is only a fantasy. Now we must find a way to convince all managers and coaches that we know more about the game than they do.
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